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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

happy days wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:06 pm My favourite material is titanium.
Ti is a very useful material, often used in place of steel in F1 components where carbon is deemed unsuitable. In reality all materials have their place in high performance design, including aluminium alloys. There is no single material that is "better" for everything and I'm pretty sceptical of carbon wheels catching on mainstream premium cars.

happy days
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Post by happy days »

I would tend to agree.
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Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:12 pm
Sidscott wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:55 pm
Peteski wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:37 pm Google at its worst ^^

Loads of poor information. It's actually hard to compare weight of steel vs alloy wheels directly because there are so many differing designs and qualities. There are also very few steel wheels in sizes above 16" to make a comparison. What I can tell you from experience is that a typical cheap cast alloy wheel is more than likely to be heavier than a rolled steel equivalent and almost definitely weaker. In motorsport and high end applications you start to see forged aluminium and magnesium rims which are considerably lighter than their cast counterparts. But a lot of Porsche OEM alloy rims (especially when talking about 20" or more) are pretty heavy beasts thanks to their largely cosmetic led designs. It would not be so hard to make them 20% lighter without resorting to complex carbon construction. If you start to browse wheel weights, both Porsche OEM and quality aftermarket wheels, you will see plenty of options that are 20% or more lighter than OEM. So no need to spend £16K to get that result!
It is a common fact that multi layered carbon fibre can be up to 30% lighter than an equivalent aluminium alloy for a given component when comparing strength and stiffness... That is why top end cycle frames, F1 monocoques etc are made of the stuff. No, it is not cheap but if you are looking for a material giving the very highest performance where money is not an issue then it is the stuff to use.
I'm not arguing with that at all. But I am stating that OEM Porsche wheels could quite easily be 20% or more lighter without having to resort to such carbon tech. The whole wheel industry is cosmetically led, making wheels that are much heavier than they need to be (even with conventional production methods and materials).

BTW my own background is in F1 engineering and even they don't use carbon wheels. Actually many structural F1 components are not carbon, even if they appear to be from the outside (e.g. steel rear suspension wishbones with carbon shrouds was commonplace, fronts usually full structural carbon) It's an amazing material, but not always the best choice for every application. In this case, it seems like the production of a carbon wheel is over-complicated and 20% weight reduction not such an impressive result.
Apologies for the google-error. 🙄

So where do you imagine Porsche to be going with this, Peteski? Is it just an engineering stunt or could there conceivably be something along the line?
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:54 pm So where do you imagine Porsche to be going with this, Peteski? Is it just an engineering stunt or could there conceivably be something along the line?
Who knows? Could be merely a marketing exercise, but probably some R&D experiment into carbon production techniques. But I would be very surprised indeed if they think the future of automotive wheel design is along the lines of:-

"the wheel is essentially comprised of two components. The wheel centre is made from carbon-fibre fabric, its construction requiring the cutting and assembling over 200 individual components. The second component is the rim base, which is made from braided carbon fibre using what is, with a diameter of approximately nine metres, currently the world’s largest carbon fibre braiding machine."

Not even in F1 has anyone seriously considered a carbon wheel. If there was a significant performance advantage, that's where you would likely see them first, not on some blinged up set of road car wheels.

I'd like to see what these carbon wheels actually do weigh in comparison to some of the premium aftermarket options from OZ and other suppliers. Maybe you can Google that for us? 20% reduction on a stock Porsche OEM rim is not that impressive and can already be achieved in many cases with conventional forged alloy wheels.
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:51 pm
Dandock wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:54 pm So where do you imagine Porsche to be going with this, Peteski? Is it just an engineering stunt or could there conceivably be something along the line?
Who knows? Could be merely a marketing exercise, but probably some R&D experiment into carbon production techniques. But I would be very surprised indeed if they think the future of automotive wheel design is along the lines of:-

"the wheel is essentially comprised of two components. The wheel centre is made from carbon-fibre fabric, its construction requiring the cutting and assembling over 200 individual components. The second component is the rim base, which is made from braided carbon fibre using what is, with a diameter of approximately nine metres, currently the world’s largest carbon fibre braiding machine."

Not even in F1 has anyone seriously considered a carbon wheel. If there was a significant performance advantage, that's where you would likely see them first, not on some blinged up set of road car wheels.

I'd like to see what these carbon wheels actually do weigh in comparison to some of the premium aftermarket options from OZ and other suppliers. Maybe you can Google that for us? 20% reduction on a stock Porsche OEM rim is not that impressive and can already be achieved in many cases with conventional forged alloy wheels.
Maybe you can Google that for us? 😂😂

Seriously... how does the rationale work for push bikes as carbon is the norm for all racing teams. Is it just that they're much simpler to construct?
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Post by Dandock »

Porsche claims the carbon-fiber wheels are 19 pounds, or 20 percent, lighter than the alloy wheels they would be replacing, which amounts to a nearly 75-pound weight reduction. They’re also said to be 20 percent stronger than Porsche’s regular alloys.

Well, you did ask. 😂

And from Rennlist... courtesy of Rich...

My buddy John over at The Wheel Enhancement helped me out on this subject. I know that some of you guys/gals are dying to know actual weights. A big thanks to him for getting the info to us. http://wheelenhancement.com/

Here is what John had forwarded to me.

19” Base Wheel
8.5”x19” = 22lbs 11oz
11” x 19” = 27lbs 5oz

20” Carrera S Wheel
8.5” x 20” 23lbs 10oz
11” x 20 27lbs 12oz

20” Design Wheel
8.5"x20" 24lbs 11oz
11"x20" 30lbs 4oz

20” Classic Wheel
8.5"x20" 24lbs 3oz
11"x20" 28lbs 4oz

20” Sport Techno Wheel
9"x20" 27lbs 2oz
11.5"x20" 31lbs 1oz
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Post by Kasfranks99 »

I would assume carbon wheels are not used in f1 because of the costs?
They need a hell of a lot of wheels just for 1 race.
Just a thought.
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Post by Garty2010 »

Thank you all for a most educational thread. I have to lock my specification down next week and if nothing else, I have been able to conclude:

I will not specify carbon, magnesium alloy or steel wheels, but will keep to my choice of 21" alloys, whatever they weigh.

There won't be any yellow on the car.

I might still change my mind on other things though.....


Cheers!
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Post by Paul »

I wonder if a fat mate is classed as additional unsprung mass?
At, say, 100kg, he would wipe out any weight saving on the wheels...😉😉😂😂
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Garty2010
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Post by Garty2010 »

:lol: Or a fat wife, is it reasonable grounds for divorce? :?:
Paul wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:18 pm I wonder if a fat mate is classed as additional unsprung mass?
At, say, 100kg, he would wipe out any weight saving on the wheels...😉😉😂😂
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