No ICE Macan from Week 16 next year?

[neilj007]

I think the £90k was for the "Turbo" version

[Moriarty]

The main worry is that we know the EV will be a lot more expensive than the ICE model so knowing Porsche they may increase the price of the ICE making people think twice in which model to choose. Also remember that manufacturers that don't sell enough EVs they have to pay a penalty for every ICE unit sold. I hope I am wrong ref price increases.

If they sell ICE and EV Macan next to each other, the EV will struggle to get sales. Isn't the rumoured starting price over £90k?

So initial sales for company cars, but the majority of private buyers will take the cheaper and easier to own and run ICE Macan. And yes, they'll get fined for every ICE car if they don't hit their EU EV sales targets.

So either the ICE Macan will increase in price to narrow the gap, or they'll have to discontinue it to force EV sales.

From what I've read before, and reading between the lines, if Porsche electrify most of their cars, it probably means they can keep ICE 911's going longer. Though they then may up the price of them and appeal to the very rich and flog them green fuel to keep them running.

Interesting video by Geoff buys cars. Appetent insurance insider stating they'll refuse to insure older ICE cars in the future to force people out of them. He argues that will be the end of high net worth car collections. I don't think that'll be true. Those high net worth car collectors will just buy expensive green fuel to keep their expensive car collections going.

Why would insurers stop insuring ICE cars? What would their interest be in turning away so much business? If it’s just for PR purposes (and I don’t see a lot of evidence insurance companies care about PR more than profit) surely other insurers would step in to take the business.

[SAC1]

Here's an example...

From 1 September 2023, MORE THAN no longer offers car insurance to new or renewing customers.

[Skyway]

They'll be going bust very quickly then. In the case of More Than my understanding is that they no longer sell car insurance at all.

Even if it had traction, it'll take years before ICE disappear, and with the new fuels being developed potentially a resurgence of the 'engine' is yet to come.

[pmg]

New fuels do not solve the respiratory issues of ICE engines in urban environments.

I, like most of the Forum, am one of the Boomer generations who make up most Porsche owners. In assessing the future life spam of ICE cars we need to take into account the views of those now age 15 to 40 and ultimately their political impact. That generation has bought the environmental impact messages and is pro far more climate and enviromental action.

I currently own a five year old Macan with at least 5 years use at my mileage left in it. I stand a reasonable chance of being able to drive for another 10 years plus and how I use a vehicle suits ICE far more than EV for the vast majority of my annual mileage. I am having doubts about placing an order for a new ICE Macan before production ceases. Such action only makes financial sense if I can continue to operate the vehicle as I do now and at roughly present costs. These doubts are from were society and legislation may be in five years' time especially after a likely change in Government.

[Skyway]

The new fuels produce nothing but condensation, i.e. zero gases, so how would they produce respiratory issues?

Meanwhile EVs are incredibly damaging to the environment way before they come off the production line and in some cases using slave labour to mine the cobalt etc. Even once on the road do we seriously believe all the power used to charge them is from renewables? Alot of companies use this tag line to appear carbon neutral simply by throwing a few tree seeds into an empty field to create a 'balance'.

The pop group COLDPLAY were big on this to promote carbon neutral touring, but it was discovered that most of the trees they had planted had all died cause no one looked after them.

Call me sceptical............

[Jon A]

My understanding is Efuel is made from carbon friendly components but still produces carbon when burned in an ice engine. Less carbon but only around 30% less
Somebody who knows will tell us I’m sure

[pmg]

The new fuels produce nothing but condensation, i.e. zero gases, so how would they produce respiratory issues?

Meanwhile EVs are incredibly damaging to the environment way before they come off the production line and in some cases using slave labour to mine the cobalt etc. Even once on the road do we seriously believe all the power used to charge them is from renewables? Alot of companies use this tag line to appear carbon neutral simply by throwing a few tree seeds into an empty field to create a 'balance'.

The pop group COLDPLAY were big on this to promote carbon neutral touring, but it was discovered that most of the trees they had planted had all died cause no one looked after them.

Call me sceptical............

Hydrogen is condensation only but that is not true of the sort of sustainable fuels Porsche and others are developing that could run in current ICE petrol engines

[Skyway]

This is what I read:

E-fuels are synthetic alternatives to fossil fuels that are made from hydrogen and CO2. They can be used in traditional combustion engines and distributed using networks that already exist.

The hydrogen needs to be produced using renewable or CO2-free energy and the CO2 has to come from capturing emissions in order for them to be considered carbon neutral.

E-fuels do still produce CO2 when they are burnt but those emissions are theoretically offset by the amount taken out of the atmosphere to produce the fuel

[Moriarty]

New fuels do not solve the respiratory issues of ICE engines in urban environments.

I, like most of the Forum, am one of the Boomer generations who make up most Porsche owners. In assessing the future life spam of ICE cars we need to take into account the views of those now age 15 to 40 and ultimately their political impact. That generation has bought the environmental impact messages and is pro far more climate and enviromental action.

I currently own a five year old Macan with at least 5 years use at my mileage left in it. I stand a reasonable chance of being able to drive for another 10 years plus and how I use a vehicle suits ICE far more than EV for the vast majority of my annual mileage. I am having doubts about placing an order for a new ICE Macan before production ceases. Such action only makes financial sense if I can continue to operate the vehicle as I do now and at roughly present costs. These doubts are from were society and legislation may be in five years' time especially after a likely change in Government.

It’s impossible to know what the costs of running an ICE car will be, or for an EV, for that matter. If we assume everything happens as planned today then ICEs will still be on sale until 2035, albeit with highly restricted volumes.

I think it is almost certain that any government will need to recoup the lost tax revenue from reduced fuel sales (annual UK fuel duty plus VAT is £30 billion now, and the amount spent on the road network is £11 billion). So I have to assume as fuel duty revenue decreases there will be some kind of tax charged on electric vehicles (maybe per mile with the government tracking your journeys, or added to electricity bills). Tax subsidies to incentivise leasing EVs will go away too, I assume, once there is little alternative. I am prepared to assume that ICE drivers will continue to get penalised disproportionately, and public opinion has been prepared for years to view ICE driving as antisocial behaviour, so it will be easy for governments to increase tax on ICEs. But still, according to the new UK regulations starting January 1st, 2024, the number of new ICE car sales will reduce rapidly in the next few years, though used ICE cars will be on the road for longer, so EV taxes might be a few more years away.

It could also be that ICE cars increase in value as customers who do not want an EV find it increasingly difficult to buy a new ICE car. Currently it is quite impractical and quite expensive to run an EV if, like very many people, you do not have the facility to recharge the car at home. Recharging using the public network can easily cost more per mile than petrol, even today. Also, it is far from certain that battery powered cars are the technology we will land on in the end, and if you buy a new EV you could be stuck with an obsolete and inconvenient albatross. Since commercial vehicles are not switching to battery power, I am assuming that petrol pumps will continue to exist pretty much as they do today. Based on the new regulations I think it will become very difficult to buy a new ICE car by 2027 or 2028, and waiting lists could be years long.

With so little information, my conclusion right now is to buy a new ICE while I still can without difficulty, so that I have it during and beyond the zero emission switchover if I want it. Allows me to wait and see what happens, and then switch to a zero emission vehicle if and when it is better for me than driving an ICE. Buying a new ICE car now should give me 10 or 15 years of car security while this big national experiment plays out.

Whatever you decide, though, it’s a gamble. That’s unavoidable when there is so much uncertainty over the future.