More Tesla woes

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happy days
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Post by happy days »

Peteski wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:30 pm
happy days wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 pm The formula in Silicone Valley is grab attention of your product, then sell on to a major competitor for a very large capital gain. Isn' t that being repeated here?
Maybe, maybe not. Tesla have made some huge investments in infrastructure and now battery manufacturing. I'm sure that will be of interest to the wider motor industry but other manufacturers seem to be doing their own thing at the moment. Personally I don't really care who owns what as long as the product is good at the time. You could have said the same about Apple a decade or so ago, but they didn't sell out.
However, Apple are one of the key SV acquirers.
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:50 pm Once the established big- hitters get started Tesla could well become the new Betamax.
Whatever, but right now the "established big hitters" are literally nowhere to be seen in the top end EV market. That's why I decided to buy a Tesla. If in 3 or 4 years time other manufacturers are making better EVs then great, I'll buy one then. But nothing on the horizon looks amazingly better than what Tesla are already doing today. The Porsche Misson E and Jaguar's iPace look interesting, but hardly ground breaking EV tech and neither are available to buy yet. To me it looks more like the "big hitters" are hanging on to legacy tech as long as they can get away with it and are actually lagging well behind on the tech curve. At least Tesla have given them a good kick up the arse to finally get going.
LLL
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Post by LLL »

Peteski wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:32 pm
Dandock wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:50 pm Once the established big- hitters get started Tesla could well become the new Betamax.
Whatever, but right now the "established big hitters" are literally nowhere to be seen in the top end EV market. That's why I decided to buy a Tesla. If in 3 or 4 years time other manufacturers are making better EVs then great, I'll buy one then. But nothing on the horizon looks amazingly better than what Tesla are already doing today. The Porsche Misson E and Jaguar's iPace look interesting, but hardly ground breaking EV tech and neither are available to buy yet. To me it looks more like the "big hitters" are hanging on to legacy tech as long as they can get away with it and are actually lagging well behind on the tech curve. At least Tesla have given them a good kick up the arse to finally get going.
^This!

Not sure why the underdog get's so much beating, usually it is the other way around. Strange. Probably because the underdog in this case is quite threatening :mrgreen:

I'll enjoy my Tesla today and in a couple of years we'll see what other options there are. If Porsche or some other manufacturer comes up with something appealing, I'll consider that. I'm however not so sure that it will be so easy for the old hat manufacturers with their heavy legacy, lack of know to some extent, stuck in old business models that are difficult to migrate into the new emerging automotive industry.

Time will tell and as a customer I'm happy if I have more choice in a couple of years time.

Yet Musk will have personally revolutionized the entire auto industry. That's quite some achievement on it's own :)
Last edited by LLL on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

Luke wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:53 pm
Peteski wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:32 pm
Dandock wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:50 pm Once the established big- hitters get started Tesla could well become the new Betamax.
Whatever, but right now the "established big hitters" are literally nowhere to be seen in the top end EV market. That's why I decided to buy a Tesla. If in 3 or 4 years time other manufacturers are making better EVs then great, I'll buy one then. But nothing on the horizon looks amazingly better than what Tesla are already doing today. The Porsche Misson E and Jaguar's iPace look interesting, but hardly ground breaking EV tech and neither are available to buy yet. To me it looks more like the "big hitters" are hanging on to legacy tech as long as they can get away with it and are actually lagging well behind on the tech curve. At least Tesla have given them a good kick up the arse to finally get going.
^This!

Not sure why the underdog get's so much beating, usually it is the other way around. Strange. Probably because the underdog in this case is quite threatening :mrgreen:

I'll enjoy my Tesla today and in a couple of years we'll see what other options there are. If Porsche or some other manufacturer comes up with something appealing, I'll consider that. I'm however not so sure that it will be so easy for the old hat manufacturers with their heavy legacy, lack of know to some extent, stuck in old business models that are difficult to migrate into the new emerging automotive industry.

Time will tell and as a customer I'm happy if I have more choice in a couple of years time.

Yet Musk will have personally revolutionized the entire auto industry. That's quite some achievement on it's own :)
All true enough but just maybe its the legislators who are actually calling the tune.
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Just been onto the Tesla website
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To support the ramp of vehicle production to 500,000 cars a year by 2018, Tesla is focused on achieving the world’s most automated manufacturing systems while ensuring its large factory workforce is trained in the advanced skills unique to Tesla’s production processes. To date, Tesla has already increased the production rate at its Fremont factory by 400 percent, a rate that will only increase as Tesla ramps production of Model 3 in 2017. Tesla always aims for the highest possible level of vehicle craftsmanship, with every Model S, Model X and Model 3 built in Fremont, where the vast majority of the vehicle’s components are also made.
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Not sure what the advanced skills which are unique to Tesla’s production process are it is car manufactiring after all except no ICE power plant and by far a more simplied drive system than the four wheel drive we have.

The fact that the vast majority of vehicle components are also made in Tesla’s own factory is also a concern, it is pretty unique, with most manufacturers buying in components manufactured to specific specs.

Hats off to Tesla, producing such innovative cars, lets offset that against Porsche who as yet cannot get an Infotainment system that is glitch free and easily updated via a firmware upgrade.
Col
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:48 pm Not sure what the advanced skills which are unique to Tesla’s production process are it is car manufactiring after all except no ICE power plant and by far a more simplied drive system than the four wheel drive we have.
They seem to be following a different process to conventional automotive manufacture e.g. advanced machine learning with robots improving panel fits etc as they go (I think they had plenty to learn!) and continual product upgrades and refinement instead of the usual discreet model year changes. I'm not a manufacturing expert, so don't know how much is true/different and how much is just marketing BS, but I can say that their product development and refinement seems faster than the norm. Model X for example has only been in production for less than 2 years and the amount of changes and upgrades in that time is pretty impressive. Although you could say that they just started from a low sub-standard baseline and should have been better from the start.

The simplified drive is one of the main attractions of Tesla to an engineer like myself. It really is impressive and brutally effective. Their traction control system is also amazing, way ahead of what we were using in F1 a few years ago. It's one thing having the power/torque to hit a 2.3 sec 0-60, but even more impressive to get that sort of power down effortlessly on the road. Obviously not having to feed in a clutch is a major advantage off the line and was always the achilles heel in F1 launch systems as clutches are so unpredictable in their response. I digress!
Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Very true Peterski.

I am unsure of what changes have been made to the Model X, but if as you elude too there has been a substantial number that to this Engineer sets alarm bells ringing.

In the manufacturing production its the cost of tooling that is substantial, so the dies and pressings have to be right from day one, same to a lesser extent is the bolt on components like suspension and drive systems.

The control software (autonomous driving excluded) is an area where changes are simple to initiate but complex to develop, refine and test.

No ICE and a much simplified drive system are good news for us but bad in the long term for motor vehicle technicians.
Col
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goron59
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Post by goron59 »

Not to mention dull. Not everyone enjoys the thrill of driving, as EVO likes to put it... indeed, we're a dying breed.
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

goron59 wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:02 am Not to mention dull. Not everyone enjoys the thrill of driving, as EVO likes to put it... indeed, we're a dying breed.
Perhaps it's ironic then that I chose to buy a Model X because it was the least dull large SUV I could find.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 pm No ICE and a much simplified drive system are good news for us but bad in the long term for motor vehicle technicians.
I disagree with this. You will still need vehicle technicians, but their skill set will be a bit different. I've also never been in favour of protecting specific jobs just for the sake of it. It doesn't work in the long term anyway if those jobs are serving a dying industry.
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