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Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Luke wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:27 pm After 1 year of Tesla ownership and more than 2000miles including trips to France, Italy, Switzerland, Norway etc, I have encountered none of what's reported in that article. There is a learning-curve on how to use the car and build trust, in the same way that people had to learn how to use a smartphone instead of a phone with buttons. Every new product has a learning curve. Just imagine someone renting a Macan, do you think that person would master the PCM system without reading the manual? Nah, don't think so...

Sitting at a Supercharger, charging above 95% @ 22kW is just hilarious, like shown in the posted article. No-one would do this in the real world, the only people who does that either don't understand how it works or just have an other agenda.

Take this example. Drive London to Inverness which is 561 miles and in total just above 1h stops enroute. I'm sure that's quite normal stop time anyone would do driving that stretch in a Macan anyway?


LondonInverness.png
Interesting

If I was driving that route my stops would total more than 1 hour, probably about 2 1/2 hours.

Conversely looking at the S 100D differently

A Tesla S 100D in the UK sells for £94,000 plus extras hence may even get up to £130,000 but lets keep it simple and a basic Tesla S.

A well equiped Macan Turbo is £74,000.

Now for the £20,000 difference I can drive for 10 years in my Turbo including servicing and fuel.

Whereas the Tesla will probably be needing a new battery pack at £12,000.

Not sure why anyone would pay such a premium for an EV
Col
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Kasfranks99
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Post by Kasfranks99 »

Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:15 pm
Macananon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:39 pm I do regular trip to my second home nonstop of 250 miles - cruising a 75 - 85 I guess an ev might just get me door to door - but that's too tight a margin for me, so l will wait untill they improve the performance/range ratio.
Some Tesla models e.g. Model S 100D would do that trip easily with plenty to spare.
The Model X 75D I’m getting would be well short though.
That completely depends on the time of year / temperature etc.

A 100D in the winter with 0 degrees outside and driving at 70mph would give you max 276 miles max stated by Tesla....
But in the summer at 20 degrees at 45mph gives you 457 miles max stated by Tesla....
I dont know anyone thats got the stated millage on their Tesla. I would expect around 15 difference to actual from my research / experience.. Above is also based on battery condition of course...

So it can work with absolute ease but it can also be very tight.. And this is on the 100d... The rest of the range is lower.
GTS 😀
LLL
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Post by LLL »

Retired wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:30 pm I'm certainly not against EVs and, having driven one and liked it, an EV will probably be the next car we buy as a second car for local and relatively short journeys.

Live about 40 odd miles from London and an EV would be fine for trips to London.

Accept that with planning longer journeys are possible, but I don't want to plan I just want to go where I want to go when I want to go. Recently drove to Frankfurt and stayed in a hotel in Oberursel on the outskirts of the city. Arrived with a nearly empty tank. Next day decided to go to the Nurburgring. No problem, visit petrol station and drive. Didn't have to think about filling up for the return to Frankfurt either, there are many petrol stations and it only takes a few minutes to fill the tank.

With an EV I could have driven to Frankfurt without any problem, I knew we were going so could have mad sure the battery was well charged before starting off.But the spontaneous decision to drive to the Nurburgring would have been more problematic.

How much do things like driving style and conditions affect range calculation? I.e. lights / heater / ac on and even on when sitting in a traffic jam.

An acquaintance has an i3 as a local runaround. He says the range is dramatically reduced if he 'pushes on' a bit.

What would a journey along an German autobahn at speeds of up to 120mph do to the range of a Tesla? I know its bad for petrol consumption, but then there are so many opportunities to refuel in a few minutes it doesn't matter.
Regarding the planning it is really rather simple, the car will take some quite good decisions and guide you. Just pop in the address and off you go. It is then also simple to just re-plan enroute if you let's say want to stop at some other place. If you e.g. feel the urge for a coffee stop at a feasible place, charge for 7 minutes while you do your shopping and then move on. The next stop will then be shorter and the re-routing done in realtime.

There is quite a substantial difference with an i3 compared with Tesla when it comes to driving at quicker speeds. Because the battery is smaller and the efficiency is worse than a Tesla at higher speeds things like colder weather and such will make a bigger difference. If you have a big battery from start it's really not the same big deal if the consumption goes up with 10%. It consumes more on shorter trips because the battery is cold, just like an ICE-car consumes much more on cold days during short journeys. The smaller the battery, the more noticeable the effect will be of course.

I drove to Italy this summer and put about 2000km on German Autobahn with my Tesla S. I found 150km/h to be the sweetspot between charging and the distance commuted. Driving at 200km/h will consume a lot more and I tried the top speed of 250km/h and at that pace the consumption is really high. So an EV today is not for Autobahn cruising at 250km/h, but for 140-160km/h it is perfectly fine. In Germany there are Superchargers everywhere and not much more than 50km between them so really a non issue. During our summer trip it was lovely doing that in the Tesla and both me and my girlfriend enjoyed it. I did some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that our commute didn't take much longer in the Tesla than it would have taken in a Macan for instace. But that is crusing between 130-160km/h. If we would have wanted to pace at 230km/h with minimal of stops during night time it would of course have taken longer with the Tesla. But doing so in the Macan would have cost A LOT of petrol also. This euro trip was Free of charge ;)

Just quickly entered the cities you mentioned above that you visited. Lot's of superchargers in the area so not sure that would have been big of an issue being spontaneous taking de-tours and so on. We did similar things the summer in Italy, Austria and Switzerland and never found the car limiting us.

Take a look here. Just example of stops, a stop could of course be removed and stay longer at another one, etc:

Germany.png

LLL
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Post by LLL »

This whole discussion about range anxiety reminds me of a friend who insisted to buy a 7-seater 2 years ago and it was a deal breaker for him so narrated down to few cars in reality. Ended up with a Volvo XC90. Met him some time ago 1,5 year into ownership and asked him how often he used the 2 extra seats. He laughed and said that he used them ones and said that next time it ain't gonna be a 7-seater :D

Range issues CAN be an issue for some driving patterns and needs, but for most needs it's really a non issue with an EV already today. At least not with a Tesla.
LLL
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Post by LLL »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:42 pm
Luke wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:27 pm After 1 year of Tesla ownership and more than 2000miles including trips to France, Italy, Switzerland, Norway etc, I have encountered none of what's reported in that article. There is a learning-curve on how to use the car and build trust, in the same way that people had to learn how to use a smartphone instead of a phone with buttons. Every new product has a learning curve. Just imagine someone renting a Macan, do you think that person would master the PCM system without reading the manual? Nah, don't think so...

Sitting at a Supercharger, charging above 95% @ 22kW is just hilarious, like shown in the posted article. No-one would do this in the real world, the only people who does that either don't understand how it works or just have an other agenda.

Take this example. Drive London to Inverness which is 561 miles and in total just above 1h stops enroute. I'm sure that's quite normal stop time anyone would do driving that stretch in a Macan anyway?


LondonInverness.png
Interesting

If I was driving that route my stops would total more than 1 hour, probably about 2 1/2 hours.

Conversely looking at the S 100D differently

A Tesla S 100D in the UK sells for £94,000 plus extras hence may even get up to £130,000 but lets keep it simple and a basic Tesla S.

A well equiped Macan Turbo is £74,000.

Now for the £20,000 difference I can drive for 10 years in my Turbo including servicing and fuel.

Whereas the Tesla will probably be needing a new battery pack at £12,000.

Not sure why anyone would pay such a premium for an EV
Actually, you don't need to add much extras on a Tesla. Much is thrown in as standard now since july. If you really want premium package with upgraded sound, metallic paint and Autopilot that will set you off about 10k

No need for a new battery pack. It will probably do for 500.000miles with 2000 complete recycle charges. 8 year warranty also and if anything happens during that time with the battery you will not need to pay up.

The Tesla will probably be worth more when it's time to sell it on also and they have good finance deals that also counts. It's still a very expensive car though and I understand that it's not for everyone.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Kasfranks99 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:47 pm
Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:15 pm
Macananon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:39 pm I do regular trip to my second home nonstop of 250 miles - cruising a 75 - 85 I guess an ev might just get me door to door - but that's too tight a margin for me, so l will wait untill they improve the performance/range ratio.
Some Tesla models e.g. Model S 100D would do that trip easily with plenty to spare.
The Model X 75D I’m getting would be well short though.
That completely depends on the time of year / temperature etc.

A 100D in the winter with 0 degrees outside and driving at 70mph would give you max 276 miles max stated by Tesla....
But in the summer at 20 degrees at 45mph gives you 457 miles max stated by Tesla....
I dont know anyone thats got the stated millage on their Tesla. I would expect around 15 difference to actual from my research / experience.. Above is also based on battery condition of course...

So it can work with absolute ease but it can also be very tight.. And this is on the 100d... The rest of the range is lower.
You are making it sound a lot more bleak than the reality here. 250 miles is possible in a Model S 100D with ease in almost any conditions. It would be much tighter in a Model X 100D or with a smaller battery option for sure. Then you’d be looking at 1x 15-20 min stop at a supercharger along the way. A total non-issue for most people and probably a good idea to take a quick break anyway. It’s one of the main reasons I settled on an X75D, which has a realistic range of around 160-180 miles. All the longer trips we do have superchargers en route and my average daily mileage is well under 100 miles. Ultimately I’ll spend much less time in service stations in the course of a year than I would with an ICE. Plus I won’t be tempted to drive ridiculous non-stop distances without a break!

If you really want to focus on the negatives, then EVs don’t work so well for people who don’t have private home parking and for sure there is some cost to early adoption, although Tesla finance (1.5% APR) made my fully optioned X considerably cheaper than most other comparable SUVs.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:42 pm
Not sure why anyone would pay such a premium for an EV
For me, I simply preferred the ultra smooth and quiet EV power. Not to mention it isn’t as polluting or wasteful as a big powerful ICE. For those who can afford it and are prepared to change their driving habits a little (all this first world whinging about having to make charging stops on their cross-continent travels etc), then it actually makes some sense. Of course not everyone will prefer the driving experience or buy into the environmental issues. That’s why we have a choice in the end.
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Wing Commander
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Post by Wing Commander »

I guess the environmental angle on an EV depends on how the power is generated.

The best result will be if the rise of EVs coincides with more environmentally friendly generation of the power. If not, surely it's just moving the pollution (e.g. from cities to where the coal/gas/oil power stations are located). ;)
Simon

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Nuclear Nick
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Post by Nuclear Nick »

Yeah, you're right Simon, we need more Nukes!!
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Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Peteski wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:24 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:42 pm
Not sure why anyone would pay such a premium for an EV
For me, I simply preferred the ultra smooth and quiet EV power. Not to mention it isn’t as polluting or wasteful as a big powerful ICE. For those who can afford it and are prepared to change their driving habits a little (all this first world whinging about having to make charging stops on their cross-continent travels etc), then it actually makes some sense. Of course not everyone will prefer the driving experience or buy into the environmental issues. That’s why we have a choice in the end.
If you think of the overall efficiency of the cradle to grave scenerio then that would be a far better way of assessing and comparing EVs with ICEs, and that info is not readily available.

Electricity generation is notoriously inefficient, however it is generated.
Col
Macan Turbo
Air, 20” wheels, ACC, Pano, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, spare wheel, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Met Black, rear airbags
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