‘Unreliable’ charge points putting people off buying electric vehicles

[Dandock]

Obviously Teslas are expensive and not for the masses or company fleet buyers. But when I compared the cost of a Model X (75D) against similar cars like the XC90 T8 or new Cayenne S it actually came out considerably cheaper on a PCP deal due to Tesla offering 1.5% APR and a very generous GFMV. The difference was well over £200 per month and that's not even factoring in lower running costs. I was surprised to be honest as I was initially put off by high Tesla list prices.

True. With the price points as they currently are Tesla are never going to be mass market cars. We mustn't forget either that we here are dealing with a specialised sector in spending £50K plus on a vehicle. I would have thought that £20-30K with a +/-300 mile range would be the target if EVs are going to have any serious market penetration.

[SAC1]

Looking forward to my new EV with it's very long recharging lead:

[Paul]

Obviously Teslas are expensive and not for the masses or company fleet buyers. But when I compared the cost of a Model X (75D) against similar cars like the XC90 T8 or new Cayenne S it actually came out considerably cheaper on a PCP deal due to Tesla offering 1.5% APR and a very generous GFMV. The difference was well over £200 per month and that's not even factoring in lower running costs. I was surprised to be honest as I was initially put off by high Tesla list prices.

True. With the price points as they currently are Tesla are never going to be mass market cars. We mustn't forget either that we here are dealing with a specialised sector in spending £50K plus on a vehicle. I would have thought that £20-30K with a +/-300 mile range would be the target if EVs are going to have any serious market penetration.

Tesla are effectively buying their current customers with subsidised finance and subsidised residuals.....good news for the customer but is it sustainable......?
(A bit like the free charging for early adopters which is no longer available)

[Guy]

Looking forward to my new EV with it's very long recharging lead:

That sucks!

[Wing Commander]

Looking forward to my new EV with it's very long recharging lead:

dyson%20ev.jpg

That sucks!

Groan!

[Deleted User 1874]

Obviously Teslas are expensive and not for the masses or company fleet buyers. But when I compared the cost of a Model X (75D) against similar cars like the XC90 T8 or new Cayenne S it actually came out considerably cheaper on a PCP deal due to Tesla offering 1.5% APR and a very generous GFMV. The difference was well over £200 per month and that's not even factoring in lower running costs. I was surprised to be honest as I was initially put off by high Tesla list prices.

True. With the price points as they currently are Tesla are never going to be mass market cars. We mustn't forget either that we here are dealing with a specialised sector in spending £50K plus on a vehicle. I would have thought that £20-30K with a +/-300 mile range would be the target if EVs are going to have any serious market penetration.

Tesla are effectively buying their current customers with subsidised finance and subsidised residuals.....good news for the customer but is it sustainable......?
(A bit like the free charging for early adopters which is no longer available)

Who knows? It certainly makes buying one feasible with no uncertainty on residuals. Tesla don't discount their hefty list prices, but the finance is obviously subsidised. They also control most of the used Tesla stock on the market, so residuals are genuinely strong e.g. when they take my car back at the end of the PCP, they probably will be able to resell it themselves at or above the GMFV. It seems like a reasonable business model to me and there are no third party dealers taking a cut.

Many other manufacturers discount their cars heavily from list price to keep sales moving. Some of the lease deals you see on BMWs and Mercs are heavily subsidised too. Porsche are different in this respect, but certainly not their parent company.

[spook]

The MIT study is very interesting

Irrespective of the detail its the principle of using whole life emissions that are of interest to me.

I agree the most important measure is the cradle to grave emissions , from mining, manufacture, shipping, usage, and disposal.

Nothing else really matters.

People forget all the components have to be transported for manufacture.

What makes me laugh is all those climate change meetings around the world, they all fly there.


Also millions of car owners live in terraced houses with no driveway, garage and no legal right to park outside their own homes.

How are they supposed to charge their cars at home ? Hang the cable out of the window across the pavement or road, trip hazard accidents waiting to happen.

Again with wireless charging you will have to park over the plate in the ground outside your home ( see above).

I assume the answer is to drive to a central charging point and wait, which is a pointless waste of time.

I have nothing against electric cars but they are not practical for everybody even if they could afford one.

[Deleted User 1874]

The MIT study is very interesting

Irrespective of the detail its the principle of using whole life emissions that are of interest to me.

I agree, the MIT study is very interesting in this respect. The study in no way reflects the recent media headlines, which seem to have a completely different agenda!

Quoting the MIT results directly from the open access paper "Personal Vehicles Evaluated against Climate Change Mitigation Targets":-

"Alternative powertrain technologies (HEVs, PHEVs, and BEVs) exhibit systematically lower lifecycle GHG emissions than ICEVs but do not necessarily cost the consumer more"

"Among alternative powertrain technologies and fuels, BEVs offer the lowest emissions, followed by PHEVs and HEVs, and then diesel engines and FCVs."

"The regional variability of the electricity mix has a considerable impact on the emissions reduction potential of BEVs and PHEVs. Based on a calculation of regionalized marginal emission factors of electricity, we find that under relatively low carbon intensity electricity conditions, such as the Western Electricity Coordinating Council (WECC) with daytime charging (477 gCO2eq/kWh), emissions from today’s BEVs are reduced by about 50% compared to ICEVs and by about 25% compared to HEVs. In regions with high carbon intensities of electricity, for example the Midwest Reliability Organization (MRO) with nighttime charging (857 gCO2eq/kWh), BEVs do not outperform (P)HEVs, and they emit only about 25% less than comparable ICEVs."

"Several currently available vehicles meet the 2030 average GHG intensity target, although none meet the more stringent 2040 and 2050 targets. Those vehicles meeting the 2030 target include several HEVs, PHEVs, and BEVs, as well as the Toyota Mirai FCV when operated with hydrogen from SMR . None of the ICEV vehicles meet the 2030 target, although some come very close."

"Even with the most beneficial behavioral changes, however, a fundamental transition away from ICEVs will likely be required to meet future GHG emission targets. Overall, we conclude that there are already cost incentives in many contexts for consumers to begin this transition. Further reducing costs (especially vehicle manufacturing costs) of BEVs and other low-carbon technologies (for example, through learning-by-doing, research and development, and economies of scale),(74-76) providing favorable financing, and better informing consumers of the lifecycle cost benefits of more efficient technologies, will likely all be important measures."

Full paper available here:-

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.6b00177

[Deleted User 1874]

Also millions of car owners live in terraced houses with no driveway, garage and no legal right to park outside their own homes.

How are they supposed to charge their cars at home ? Hang the cable out of the window across the pavement or road, trip hazard accidents waiting to happen.

Again with wireless charging you will have to park over the plate in the ground outside your home ( see above).

These are indeed practical issues to be overcome one way or another. As range increases, charging times decrease and public charging infrastructure matures they will become less and less of an issue to most people. I expect the medium term future (10-20 years) will become a mix of BEVs and PHEVs to suit different personal situations. Again quoting directly from the MIT study:-

"A primary takeaway for car buyers is that vehicle decarbonization compatible with future climate targets can only be achieved by transitioning away from ICEVs, principally to (P)HEVs and BEVs."