the case for hydrogen cars

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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col M wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:27 am Given that I have to use a small communal car park and have no charge at home possibility a quick (alternative) refuel is necessary to make a vehicle practical
But you're not going to buy a hydrogen car anytime soon because you will have nowhere to refuel it. Unless someone is willing to invest in a major national hydrogen refuelling infrastructure, nobody will buy the cars.

With EVs it was a much easier sell initially with home charging that was at least viable for a significant number of early adopters. Then once a critical mass was reached public charging become commercially viable too. I don't see how that critical mass will ever be reached with hydrogen cars as nobody will buy one until a viable refuelling infrastructure is in place and I just don't see that high risk investment going ahead unless maybe someone comes along like Tesla did in the EV market and makes it all happen more or less overnight!

In the next 5 years I can see a significant number of people moving to BEVs, while pretty much nobody will buy a hydrogen car. Hybrids are going to become pretty standard issue too for the masses.

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Post by johnd »

Peteski wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:16 pm Hybrids are going to become pretty standard issue too for the masses.
Must admit that I don't have a very clear idea of what hybrids mean in practice. I know there are different types, mild hybrids, PHEV etc. And I can see:

1, That if they're drivable on battery power alone then that's handy for a whole range of short journeys, eg supermarkets, shorter commutes etc.

2. If you can take advantage of [1] then your overall mpg is going to increase because the short journeys are mostly going to be taken out of the equation.

3. In stop-start driving then battery power has to be the way to do it (assuming enough charge left).

But eg:

* Is the battery power additive with ICE power to give added acceleration? (Again I'm sure it will vary with individual model configurations, but how do you find out? 0-60 times are obviously one metric, but how sure can you be that the battery has charge available?)

* Does the penalty of lugging around the more complex power train and battery weight really give a net benefit?

* Once your journey moves to ICE propulsion then is there enough surplus power to recharge the battery?

* Is regen typically fitted to hybrids? Then is it strong enough to be really useful?

Etc
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Post by SAC1 »

Totally agree Col M. Not everyone has the option to charge at home. It's about time the survey people actually provided some UK statistics on the number of homes that can or cannot have a charge point where they live.
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

johnd wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:27 pm
Peteski wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:16 pm Hybrids are going to become pretty standard issue too for the masses.
Must admit that I don't have a very clear idea of what hybrids mean in practice. I know there are different types, mild hybrids, PHEV etc. And I can see:

1, That if they're drivable on battery power alone then that's handy for a whole range of short journeys, eg supermarkets, shorter commutes etc.

2. If you can take advantage of [1] then your overall mpg is going to increase because the short journeys are mostly going to be taken out of the equation.

3. In stop-start driving then battery power has to be the way to do it (assuming enough charge left).

But eg:

* Is the battery power additive with ICE power to give added acceleration? (Again I'm sure it will vary with individual model configurations, but how do you find out?)

* Does the penalty of lugging around the more complex power train and battery weight really give a new benefit?

* Once your journey moves to ICE propulsion then is there enough surplus power to recharge the battery?

* Is regen typically fitted to hybrids? Then is it strong enough to be really useful?

Etc
I think you've got the idea there. I test drove a couple of the latest Volvo hybrids (XC60 T8 and XC90 T8) and they basically have a relatively small 10 kWh battery, giving around 15-20 miles electric only range (with around 85 hp) and a 300+ hp 4-pot petrol turbo. In "performance" mode both the electric motor and engine work in parallel to give a total of around 400 hp. In "hybrid" mode the car intelligently switches between electric and petrol depending on how heavy your right foot is and how fast you are going. You can also charge the battery from the petrol engine as you drive on the motorway - with the idea of using the electric power at your destination e.g. plodding through a town. But it is far more efficient to plug in the battery to charge it at home or at a public charger. That's why you see a lot of plug-in hybrids charging when out and about.

My take on the Volvo hybrids was that they work reasonably well for local use and when you can conveniently plug them in. But on longer journeys the extra weight and complexity works against them and unless you make the effort to plug in at destinations or along the way, you end up with a pretty inefficient drivetrain. But any thought of us buying a Volvo T8 evaporated after testing a Tesla Model X with its jaw-dropping performance and ultra-smooth power delivery. It was like stepping a full decade into the future.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

SAC1 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:45 pm Totally agree Col M. Not everyone has the option to charge at home. It's about time the survey people actually provided some UK statistics on the number of homes that can or cannot have a charge point where they live.
This is the main limitation with BEVs at the moment. For sure there is a large percentage of the population who cannot viably charge at home, but at least some of those people could potentially charge at their work place instead. Those people (and I agree there are a lot of them) who absolutely cannot charge their BEV anywhere conveniently will continue to drive ICE or maybe hybrids in the near future. I don't see any of those people buying a hydrogen car for the obvious lack of refuelling stations.
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