Tesla review online

[Deleted User 1874]

The other thing is that if you only ever charged your battery at 350 kW it would die pretty quickly. Lithium batteries like to be charged slowly. It's fine to quick charge them on occasion, but as a daily routine it would not be feasible with the current battery technology.

[Taz]

At the risk of being provocative, this debate is focused on charging but do we have the right solution in terms of lithium mining and what happens to dead batteries after 5-10 years. I don’t have the answers but would be interested in other people’s views.

Also, I did read an article (not saying it’s true) that said if we all had electric cars then we would need another nuclear power station to feed them.

For sure, the next 5-10 years are going to be interesting.

[Dandock]

Not only that but as I imagine the power source makes up a signifant proportion of the total cost any increase in material costs could significantly impact on the selling price until an alternative battery technology evolves.

As colbalt is rare and finite and one of the principal ingredients in a lithium battery I note that Apple are looking to buy massive amounts of in order to ensure continuity for their phones. Prices which are still barely affordable for the mass market therefore can only go one way and economy of scale may never be realised.

[johnd]

At the risk of being provocative, this debate is focused on charging but do we have the right solution in terms of lithium mining and what happens to dead batteries after 5-10 years.

Lithium supply seems unlikely to be an issue - plenty of reserves, just a question of mining/production capacity aligning with demand - will take some time and investment but no major barriers. As Dandock says, cobalt supply is maybe a more serious issue, but there are alternative electrode components in development so this may turn out to be a non-problem too.

Batteries will be recycled in two ways: they can be reused in less demanding (slower charge/discharge) applications such as grid storage for another 5-10 years of life; and ultimately broken down and materials reclaimed.

Also, I did read an article (not saying it’s true) that said if we all had electric cars then we would need another nuclear power station to feed them.

Bring it on - again it's just another major capex project. It does look like future energy supply will be based around fission reactors for base load (at least until fusion reactors are ready) together with distributed renewables (offshore wind, potentially tidal power, solar farms and domestic panels etc) and much more use of domestic and grid storage to smooth out the peaks and troughs of renewable generation.

[Deleted User 1874]

I think john has covered the main points above, but the bottom line is that EV product lifecycle pollution is way down on anything based on fossil fuel. If increased EV use drives cleaner grid electricity then I see that as a positive too. Lithium mining will need to ramp up, but at least that can happen in our current age of technology rather than 100+ years ago when fossil fuels were first mined. It should be more controlled and far more efficient. There is never going to be an environmental freebie when it comes to personal transport, but EV appears to be a good step forward from where we are now.

[Deleted User 1874]

As colbalt is rare and finite and one of the principal ingredients in a lithium battery I note that Apple are looking to buy massive amounts of in order to ensure continuity for their phones. Prices which are still barely affordable for the mass market therefore can only go one way and economy of scale may never be realised.

Overall battery costs are coming down rapidly at the moment. It would appear economies of scale are still the dominant factor in unit cost, rather than availability of raw materials. I know that could change in the longer term, but for the next 10 years battery prices will almost certainly continue to fall significantly. We are not far from the turning point where EVs will become inherently cheaper to produce than ICE cars.

[Nosmo]

........
More seriously, a solution has to be created simply to avoid the mass exclusion of thousands of households. Without a workable solution emissions targets of any almost type are simply unachievable.

The same applies to broadband. Live rurally and your consigned to the dark ages - speed wise - with little political will to change this. As it occurs to me though, the inverse could well apply here as the greatest environmental gain will come from the large conurbations where the greatest number of households don't have easy access to a charging point. Politically in this instance, it is more beneficial to seek a solution.

[Col Lamb]

We have been on this type of discussion variation a few times before in the last couple of years.

The EV infrastructure is slowly moving forward but I do not see any co-ordinated central Government lead occuring.

As more and more EVs come on the market the demand for readily available charging will increase, is the rate of increase of charging facilities going to meet demand?

It has taken 40 years to get the Lithium based battery technology to the performance that it has today.

Remember Moores Law in computing about CPU performance doubling every 18 moths, that has well and truly stalled due to limitations in the materials, well there is nothing in the battery market to suggest that there will be a quantum leap in battery tech, more of an uphill slog with an overloaded donkey.

Do also remember that Tesla, did not create the batteries they use, Panasonic did, Tesla are just developing somebodys elses Tech.

BTW a quiz question, Lithium batteries were initially conceived by a British Chemist, who was he?

[Nosmo]

John Bannister Goodenough.

[Deleted User 1874]

We have been on this type of discussion variation a few times before in the last couple of years.

The EV infrastructure is slowly moving forward but I do not see any co-ordinated central Government lead occuring.

As more and more EVs come on the market the demand for readily available charging will increase, is the rate of increase of charging facilities going to meet demand?

It has taken 40 years to get the Lithium based battery technology to the performance that it has today.

Remember Moores Law in computing about CPU performance doubling every 18 moths, that has well and truly stalled due to limitations in the materials, well there is nothing in the battery market to suggest that there will be a quantum leap in battery tech, more of an uphill slog with an overloaded donkey.

Do also remember that Tesla, did not create the batteries they use, Panasonic did, Tesla are just developing somebodys elses Tech.

BTW a quiz question, Lithium batteries were initially conceived by a British Chemist, who was he?

Tesla simply proved what other manufacturers considered was unfeasible with the current battery tech i.e. high performance along with reasonable range.

Charging facilities for Tesla are currently great. I was at the Warwick M40 Supercharger station on Friday afternoon during rush hour. They have 8 Tesla supercharger bays (plus some other generic EV charging stations) and only 1 bay was in use when I arrived. I was there for 30 mins to make the most of the free charging (I could have left after 10 mins and comfortably got back home) and in that time a couple of other Teslas came and went. None of the generic chargers were in use during that time either. By comparison, the BP fuel station next door was rammed full as you would expect at that time of day. I know the public EV charging network is still a bit of a dog's dinner, but it's all VIP charging treatment for Tesla owners!