Jaguar I-Pace

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Col Lamb
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Col Lamb » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:03 pm

Peteski wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:33 pm
Dandock wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:26 pm
Once, whenever that is, a viable infrastructure for all marques is in place will not range anxiety simply be the same as mpg when you pays your money and takes your choice.
Range anxiety is only really a thing for small battery EVs like the Leaf, Zoe, i3 etc. It's not really something people with Teslas generally suffer from. iPace drivers will be somewhere in the middle with the current patchy charging infrastructure. The most range anxiety I've suffered from has been in ICE cars when running on fumes. We've all been there for sure! Now you could argue that the same applies to EVs, but the sat nav is clever enough to prevent it ever happening, guiding you to a Supercharger long before range becomes critical. Plus you tend to be less complacent. I've lost count of the number of times I've skipped a filling station when the fuel light has first come on thinking I can just find another one a bit further along and then ended up desperately searching for one on fumes! Can't say I've ever actually run out on the road, but certainly had a few very close scrapes.
Your running on fumes rattled my old grey cells.

20 years ago I was bombing around Manchester in my works diesel car with 1/4 tank of fuel showing, I then hit a ridge in the tarmac and the fuel tank went to zero and the engine cut out, I jammed the clutch down.

I exited the nearby junction at 70 mph, down the slip road and broardsided around the roundabout and coasted 100m into the nearby filling station.
Col
Macan Turbo, Met Blk, Spyders, Air, ACC, Pano, Garnet, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Spare Wheel plus a few other goodies.
Prior Macan SD similar spec to Turbo


Peteski
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Peteski » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:30 am

Col Lamb wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:03 pm
Peteski wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:33 pm
Dandock wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:26 pm
Once, whenever that is, a viable infrastructure for all marques is in place will not range anxiety simply be the same as mpg when you pays your money and takes your choice.
Range anxiety is only really a thing for small battery EVs like the Leaf, Zoe, i3 etc. It's not really something people with Teslas generally suffer from. iPace drivers will be somewhere in the middle with the current patchy charging infrastructure. The most range anxiety I've suffered from has been in ICE cars when running on fumes. We've all been there for sure! Now you could argue that the same applies to EVs, but the sat nav is clever enough to prevent it ever happening, guiding you to a Supercharger long before range becomes critical. Plus you tend to be less complacent. I've lost count of the number of times I've skipped a filling station when the fuel light has first come on thinking I can just find another one a bit further along and then ended up desperately searching for one on fumes! Can't say I've ever actually run out on the road, but certainly had a few very close scrapes.
Your running on fumes rattled my old grey cells.

20 years ago I was bombing around Manchester in my works diesel car with 1/4 tank of fuel showing, I then hit a ridge in the tarmac and the fuel tank went to zero and the engine cut out, I jammed the clutch down.

I exited the nearby junction at 70 mph, down the slip road and broardsided around the roundabout and coasted 100m into the nearby filling station.
ha, ha. The worst I can remember was the fuel supply crisis we had in the late 90s. I was out that day and had to stop at about 4 or 5 petrol stations before I eventually found one with some fuel. I was seriously bricking it by that point and honestly thought I would be stranded.


Peteski
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Peteski » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:58 am

Dandock wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Peteski wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:33 pm
Dandock wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:26 pm
Once, whenever that is, a viable infrastructure for all marques is in place will not range anxiety simply be the same as mpg when you pays your money and takes your choice.
Range anxiety is only really a thing for small battery EVs like the Leaf, Zoe, i3 etc. It's not really something people with Teslas generally suffer from. iPace drivers will be somewhere in the middle with the current patchy charging infrastructure. The most range anxiety I've suffered from has been in ICE cars when running on fumes. We've all been there for sure! Now you could argue that the same applies to EVs, but the sat nav is clever enough to prevent it ever happening, guiding you to a Supercharger long before range becomes critical. Plus you tend to be less complacent. I've lost count of the number of times I've skipped a filling station when the fuel light has first come on thinking I can just find another one a bit further along and then ended up desperately searching for one on fumes! Can't say I've ever actually run out on the road, but certainly had a few very close scrapes.
From what I read on here Tesla are pretty well sorted for principal routes. What needs to happen is for Ionity and whatever else to get a comprehensive network sorted. As I said once these networks are thoroughly sorted range will be as relatively unimportant as mpg and vehicle purchases will be based once again on the choice between performance and economy.

As you say, though, the bigger challenge is for the smaller vehicles that cannot comprise the battery volume. We therefore have to wait for the technology to rise to that challenge.
I think the new Hyundai Kona is a big step forward for slightly smaller, practical family EVs and I expect they will become very popular. By all accounts they are super efficient (real world 250 mile range from a modest 64 kWh battery, plus an instant super smooth 204 hp) and there are plenty of people on the Tesla forums buying them as a second car. It's basically what Nissan should be making to replace their ICE Qashqai. The 1.5 turbo diesel in ours feels massively agricultural now (and dog slow!) and it's actually quite a refined engine for its class.

This is a market where EVs could dominate very quickly (providing they have a decent range like the Kona has). Running costs and performance are light years ahead of the small 4-pot turbo-diesels typically powering these family workhorses today. Although lack of home charging facility will still remain a major issue for some. That's where hybrids fit into the market, but if you can home charge then BEVs are a far better and much more efficient solution. Superficial review of the Kona here, but gets the point across:-

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/hyu ... irst-drive


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jesim1
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by jesim1 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:23 pm

I said I would give a quick update on driving the Tesla Model S after I had it for the past 24hrs - and it's probably getting lost in this thread of the Ipace, but it's part of my experience from the Ipace test drive and still relevant to anyone who has been following this.

So over the past 24hrs I've had a £90k Tesla Model S P100D on loan as I have been shopping about to see if it's worth changing my 3 year old Macan SD.

I had tried the Ipace, and at £65k with a range in real life of closer to 200 miles than the advertised 300 it concerned me about the range and network availability to charge it, plus it just does not feel like £65s worth. I then tried the Tesla Model X P100D, it was too big for what I want, very noisy on the motorway, a bit cumbersome, and with a £95k price tag just did not feel like a £95k quality car.

This leads me to the last trial - the Model S P100D.

This was by far the best EV I have driven so far, it felt like a "proper car" with good performance and the obvious instant acceleration you get from an EV. None of the noise that I experienced in the Model X was there, and with good handling and a comfortable ride it's the only one I would consider as it also had a real 300 mile range and access to the Tesla charging network. I only did about 140 miles in it of mixed roads and probably about 5 hours driving. I took it to the tip - as you do, and also shopping so I could get to know what it was like to live with, which is more important than it's 0-60 in real life. It is spacious inside and has a big boot, but is still fairly low for me and my old knees, which is partly why the Macan and it's SUV shape is a nice place to be.

But here is the rub - It's still £90k! You can buy a Porsche Panamera hybrid for that kind of money and get a car which is bigger, just as quick, has a more premium feel to it, and has a more prestigious badge on the bonnet. Add in to that it is likely to have a higher resale (based on Teslas own PCP deal) and that saving would wipe out any advantage cost wise from a running point of view unless you worked somewhere you had to deal with the congestion charge regularly. You would also never be stuck for a fill anywhere in the UK or be bothered about needing a driveway to charge it.

So for now I'm going to keep my Macan. It's too nice a car and too cheap compared to the alternatives for what I perceive I'd be getting in return - and I appreciate that is different for everyone. I really don't see the "value" in the Tesla - it's nice, but when you compare it to cars of a similar value it's just not a great deal, nor does it have the quality of a £90k+ car I would expect. This kind of leads me to think my best course of action is to watch what happens with EVs in general, but if Porsche can knock out a new Macan EV in the next 3 years when the current model is going to be replaced, then that could be my ideal next car, but I'd like to think by then they could do it for the price of a current turbo version?

James
Functional & fun, ooh err missus: http://www.porsche-code.com/PGCJ9I91


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SAC1
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by SAC1 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Your dilemma is similar to many peoples and a key factor in why new car sales are stalling this year. I too tested the iPace and Tesla S but could not justifying changing at this stage.

WLTP testing is another factor too. In May we ordered ln a new SEAT Leon 5-door 1.8i FR with DSG (as our second car). The dealer rang me today to say it will be ready for collection at the end of this month and will now be a 2.0i in 2019 model guise. Lots of the optional extras that we specified are now in this, the new standard model's spec including DSG and metallic paint.


Peteski
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Peteski » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:53 am

jesim1 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:23 pm
I said I would give a quick update on driving the Tesla Model S after I had it for the past 24hrs - and it's probably getting lost in this thread of the Ipace, but it's part of my experience from the Ipace test drive and still relevant to anyone who has been following this.

So over the past 24hrs I've had a £90k Tesla Model S P100D on loan as I have been shopping about to see if it's worth changing my 3 year old Macan SD.

I had tried the Ipace, and at £65k with a range in real life of closer to 200 miles than the advertised 300 it concerned me about the range and network availability to charge it, plus it just does not feel like £65s worth. I then tried the Tesla Model X P100D, it was too big for what I want, very noisy on the motorway, a bit cumbersome, and with a £95k price tag just did not feel like a £95k quality car.

This leads me to the last trial - the Model S P100D.

This was by far the best EV I have driven so far, it felt like a "proper car" with good performance and the obvious instant acceleration you get from an EV. None of the noise that I experienced in the Model X was there, and with good handling and a comfortable ride it's the only one I would consider as it also had a real 300 mile range and access to the Tesla charging network. I only did about 140 miles in it of mixed roads and probably about 5 hours driving. I took it to the tip - as you do, and also shopping so I could get to know what it was like to live with, which is more important than it's 0-60 in real life. It is spacious inside and has a big boot, but is still fairly low for me and my old knees, which is partly why the Macan and it's SUV shape is a nice place to be.

But here is the rub - It's still £90k! You can buy a Porsche Panamera hybrid for that kind of money and get a car which is bigger, just as quick, has a more premium feel to it, and has a more prestigious badge on the bonnet. Add in to that it is likely to have a higher resale (based on Teslas own PCP deal) and that saving would wipe out any advantage cost wise from a running point of view unless you worked somewhere you had to deal with the congestion charge regularly. You would also never be stuck for a fill anywhere in the UK or be bothered about needing a driveway to charge it.

So for now I'm going to keep my Macan. It's too nice a car and too cheap compared to the alternatives for what I perceive I'd be getting in return - and I appreciate that is different for everyone. I really don't see the "value" in the Tesla - it's nice, but when you compare it to cars of a similar value it's just not a great deal, nor does it have the quality of a £90k+ car I would expect. This kind of leads me to think my best course of action is to watch what happens with EVs in general, but if Porsche can knock out a new Macan EV in the next 3 years when the current model is going to be replaced, then that could be my ideal next car, but I'd like to think by then they could do it for the price of a current turbo version?

James
I have to agree I think the 100D is expensive at £90K, although doesn't necessarily need as much option spend as a Panamera undoubtedly would! A 75D with the same performance (only 0.1 sec slower to 60 mph) and 50-60 miles less real world range is much better value at just over £70K. It still has a real world range close to 250 miles and weighs 150 kg less with the smaller battery. The P100D you keep mentioning is actually £126K, but has the supercar performance to go with that sort of price tag.

The latest Panamera is very nice (unlike the dog ugly original!), but I just don't buy into the hybrid drivetrain in the same way as the Tesla, especially now I've got used to living with an EV and discovered all the hidden *advantages that I was oblivious to on test drives. For me that trumps subjective quality of materials any day and I have to say the synthetic leather in our X is wearing better than any of our previous Porsche leather seats, showing none of the typical annoying crease marks or bolster wear. The Panamera is also smaller inside despite its external bulk, although still plenty big enough for most. But the boot in the S is truly enormous and very deep.

For me the Taycan is the true alternative to a Model S and yet to be proven. If they really can offer it for the £60-70K they are talking about and there isn't a multi-year waiting list, then I'd probably give it a go. But I would miss the Tesla Supercharger network on a longer trip.

* No more smelly filling station visits, no more getting caught low on fuel when in a hurry, the ability to silently pre-warm/cool the car from your phone (can't overstate the real world value of this feature), the ability to run climate control without a running engine when waiting in the car, no stop/start engine noise when queueing in traffic - just silence, no clutch, no gears, no auto creeping, no engine vibration, no engine warm-up time. All these things just make it a more pleasant everyday experience.


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jesim1
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by jesim1 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:49 pm

Peteski wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:53 am
The P100D you keep mentioning is actually £126K, but has the supercar performance to go with that sort of price tag.
My Bad :oops: - It's not the Performance version I had, just the standard Model S 100D, but after driving it I can understand why you like it. If it had been the £70k of the 75D then I might have considered it, I was kind of "on the fence", but the £90k made it too uncompetative in comparison to somthing like a Panamera/Macan turbo.

Now Porsche have given more details of the Taycan, and said there will be an EV SUV by 2020, I can see me just waiting for somhting like this then, as I think the market over the next 18 months is going to change Teslas monopoly on high end desent EVs. I can slum it in the Macan for now :D

James
Functional & fun, ooh err missus: http://www.porsche-code.com/PGCJ9I91


Peteski
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Peteski » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:45 pm

jesim1 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:49 pm
Peteski wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:53 am
The P100D you keep mentioning is actually £126K, but has the supercar performance to go with that sort of price tag.
My Bad :oops: - It's not the Performance version I had, just the standard Model S 100D, but after driving it I can understand why you like it. If it had been the £70k of the 75D then I might have considered it, I was kind of "on the fence", but the £90k made it too uncompetative in comparison to somthing like a Panamera/Macan turbo.

Now Porsche have given more details of the Taycan, and said there will be an EV SUV by 2020, I can see me just waiting for somhting like this then, as I think the market over the next 18 months is going to change Teslas monopoly on high end desent EVs. I can slum it in the Macan for now :D

James
I agree with waiting as the Tesla S is due for replacement too in the next couple of years, probably 2021 and possibly even sooner. The 75D is the sweet spot in the range since the performance was casually boosted by 100 hp last year to match the 100D. The X is a little different in that it benefits in some respects from being a slightly newer design and certainly has a better quality interior trim finish, although it has proven to be less reliable with its complicated rear doors.

I can't see us replacing our Model X until 2022 and by then hopefully there will be some EV choice in the large SUV market. We're also looking at a second smaller EV and the Tesla Model 3 Performance is looking like getting our money as I don't see what else is going to be on the market to challenge it by this time next year when it hits the UK. If it was available now (or there was anything similar on the market) we would be buying it today. But there's really a huge void in the current EV market. At one end you have the dull Leaf, half arsed e-Golf and other toy EVs like the Zoe, i3 etc and Tesla, iPace at the other end. Literally nothing in the BMW 3-series, Audi A4 class.


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Dandock
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Dandock » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm

Peteski wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:45 pm
jesim1 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:49 pm
Peteski wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:53 am
The P100D you keep mentioning is actually £126K, but has the supercar performance to go with that sort of price tag.
My Bad :oops: - It's not the Performance version I had, just the standard Model S 100D, but after driving it I can understand why you like it. If it had been the £70k of the 75D then I might have considered it, I was kind of "on the fence", but the £90k made it too uncompetative in comparison to somthing like a Panamera/Macan turbo.

Now Porsche have given more details of the Taycan, and said there will be an EV SUV by 2020, I can see me just waiting for somhting like this then, as I think the market over the next 18 months is going to change Teslas monopoly on high end desent EVs. I can slum it in the Macan for now :D

James
I agree with waiting as the Tesla S is due for replacement too in the next couple of years, probably and possibly even sooner.


And from the Taycan pics thread...

But then it's all still multiple years away

An subtle but interesting difference in position? ;) :)
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀


Peteski
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Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Post by Peteski » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:41 pm

Dandock wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm
Peteski wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:45 pm
jesim1 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:49 pm


My Bad :oops: - It's not the Performance version I had, just the standard Model S 100D, but after driving it I can understand why you like it. If it had been the £70k of the 75D then I might have considered it, I was kind of "on the fence", but the £90k made it too uncompetative in comparison to somthing like a Panamera/Macan turbo.

Now Porsche have given more details of the Taycan, and said there will be an EV SUV by 2020, I can see me just waiting for somhting like this then, as I think the market over the next 18 months is going to change Teslas monopoly on high end desent EVs. I can slum it in the Macan for now :D

James
I agree with waiting as the Tesla S is due for replacement too in the next couple of years, probably and possibly even sooner.


And from the Taycan pics thread...

But then it's all still multiple years away

An subtle but interesting difference in position? ;) :)
The subtle difference being that Tesla have been producing the current Model S since 2012! Porsche first talked about the Mission-E for 2018, then it soon became 2019 and now looks realistically like 2020 for the UK. Meanwhile you could buy a Model S today, although you would have to face the possibility of a brand new replacement model from 2020 if that bothered you. So people not so fussed about having a new car today might as well wait a couple of years to see how it all pans out.


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