Jaguar I-Pace

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Dandock
Posts: 4096
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:29 pm

Post by Dandock »

Weight is clearly the enemy here. It’s clear in the iPace video that JLR have maybe struggled between use of weight-saving materials and the use of sufficient sound-deadening.

What we also know by way of the heavy weight of both Porsche hybrids is that the proportion of battery to engine is tricky line to run.
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀

Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 am Weight is clearly the enemy here. It’s clear in the iPace video that JLR have maybe struggled between use of weight-saving materials and the use of sufficient sound-deadening.

What we also know by way of the heavy weight of both Porsche hybrids is that the proportion of battery to engine is tricky line to run.
You've hit on a point I've been thinking about for a while. Sound deadening adds a fair bit of weight and you are always looking for weight saving when building an EV. Tesla sound deadening is also pretty light and there is definitely significant wind and road noise coming through into the cabin. But the overall ambience is still much calmer than any Porsche I've been in. I see that the new Merc EV is reported to weigh almost 2500 kg, which makes it the heaviest of the lot and should be the quietest. But is that the right compromise to make? I'm not convinced at all. In reality these EVs are very relaxing to drive compared to ICE equivalents and can afford to give away a little sound deadening to save weight.

I quickly skimmed the What Car review of the iPace vs Tesla S and FWIW they objectively recorded a slightly lower noise level in the Tesla. I can't remember the actual numbers, but I was a little surprised at that. One guy who owns a Tesla S, test drove the iPace and was convinced it was quieter, but that could be a simple placebo effect based on expectation and you do get used to the sound of your own car. Testing a new car for the first time takes up a lot more of your attention, so you are far less likely to notice background noise.
Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

So will the Sports Exhaust button ultimately morph into a Concorde button? Will petrolheads become 'whine' merchants? :lol:
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm So will the Sports Exhaust button ultimately morph into a Concorde button? Will petrolheads become 'whine' merchants? :lol:
iPace has a "sport" fake engine noise option already for those who like that sort of thing.
Dandock
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:29 pm

Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:41 pm
Dandock wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm So will the Sports Exhaust button ultimately morph into a Concorde button? Will petrolheads become 'whine' merchants? :lol:
iPace has a "sport" fake engine noise option already for those who like that sort of thing.
Yes I heard that. What I had in mind was that ultimately the electric whine would be the drug. Plus all manner of aftermarket electronic upgrades. :twisted:
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:50 pm
Peteski wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:41 pm
Dandock wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm So will the Sports Exhaust button ultimately morph into a Concorde button? Will petrolheads become 'whine' merchants? :lol:
iPace has a "sport" fake engine noise option already for those who like that sort of thing.
Yes I heard that. What I had in mind was that ultimately the electric whine would be the drug. Plus all manner of aftermarket electronic upgrades. :twisted:
The Tesla actually makes quite a nice noise on full song. It's subtle but not by any means silent when accelerating hard, only when cruising. Sounds like a massive turbo spooling up.
jesim1
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Location: Nr Wigan

Post by jesim1 »

All good points getting raised, both for and against, but from a main stream point of view, if someone was to:

1. Save some weight by doing a 2 wheel drive version and just keep one motor of around 200bhp.

2. Then use the saved weight to increase battery capacity using current tec by say 30% (120kw?) - so a real 350/400 mile range.

This would save the cost and weight of a motor, which in turn could be used for battery capacity/volume, so would probably still be slightly cheaper and no heavier?

I know we are looking more at current high performance models like the IPace/Tesla here - but the industry needs a 3 Series/C-class/Mondeo to sell to the masses in volumes. Tesla have kind of gone that way, but I think they have also had some issues and lost the plot a bit with Elon Musk going off at too many tangents and generally being a moron while still being brilliant at the same time - a rare combination indeed! Most people don't need a 0-60 under 5 seconds, but they don't want a eye wateringly slow ride either. Neither do they want or need Porsche handling, but again, don't want Noddys car, so handling and weight are not so critical here.

I would put a lot of money on one (or all) of the big manufacturers having this on their drawing boards right now, perhaps just waiting another year or 18 months for the charging infrastructure to grow more. I know Peteski is currently enjoying relatively empty charging bays, but that would change if all the big boys rolled out a car like I've suggested for the price of a top end ICE version, which I think they could do if they though the timing was right?

James
johnd
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:23 pm

Post by johnd »

jesim1 wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:54 am 1. Save some weight by doing a 2 wheel drive version and just keep one motor of around 200bhp.

2. Then use the saved weight to increase battery capacity using current tec by say 30% (120kw?) - so a real 350/400 mile range.
I don't pretend to have the insights of a car designer, but isn't the limitation the floorpan space to accommodate the batteries rather than weight per se. You might see the sort of design you're outlining in a future Chinese EV maybe (don't they prefer cars with a long wheelbase and hence more potential floorpan area?) Or maybe eg in the EV equivalent of a Skoda Superb should that ever come to pass.

But I think right now with the current designs they've crammed in as much battery as space allows. More battery needs more physical space and hence a larger car (at least unless/until battery packaging and heating/cooling technology evolves further, which is perhaps something that could happen faster than changes in battery chemistry.)

Another factor is the torque that electric motors can generate. With two motors (one per axle) you do have 4WD and hence can distribute the considerable amounts of torque from a standing start without much wheelspin. You obviously lose this benefit with a single motor.

I suspect what most EV designers are gambling on is a substantial build-out of the rapid charging network, which does indeed seem to be happening, but is obviously going to take time. In practice, 200-250 miles range is plenty day-to-day for drivers who can home-charge - it's just a different psychology filling up every night rather than waiting until the tank is approaching empty. But the remaining issue undoubtedly is how to cater for the occasional longer journeys.
Macan SD (Rhodium) www.porsche-code.com/PH4H6XU3 June 2016

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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

jesim1 wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:54 am All good points getting raised, both for and against, but from a main stream point of view, if someone was to:

1. Save some weight by doing a 2 wheel drive version and just keep one motor of around 200bhp.

2. Then use the saved weight to increase battery capacity using current tec by say 30% (120kw?) - so a real 350/400 mile range.

This would save the cost and weight of a motor, which in turn could be used for battery capacity/volume, so would probably still be slightly cheaper and no heavier?

I know we are looking more at current high performance models like the IPace/Tesla here - but the industry needs a 3 Series/C-class/Mondeo to sell to the masses in volumes. Tesla have kind of gone that way, but I think they have also had some issues and lost the plot a bit with Elon Musk going off at too many tangents and generally being a moron while still being brilliant at the same time - a rare combination indeed! Most people don't need a 0-60 under 5 seconds, but they don't want a eye wateringly slow ride either. Neither do they want or need Porsche handling, but again, don't want Noddys car, so handling and weight are not so critical here.

I would put a lot of money on one (or all) of the big manufacturers having this on their drawing boards right now, perhaps just waiting another year or 18 months for the charging infrastructure to grow more. I know Peteski is currently enjoying relatively empty charging bays, but that would change if all the big boys rolled out a car like I've suggested for the price of a top end ICE version, which I think they could do if they though the timing was right?

James
To put this in perspective a Tesla 100 kWh battery weighs over 600 kg, while a motor is only around 35 kg. As John says, the battery also takes up the whole floorpan (and these are large cars). Scaling up, a 120 kWh battery would be well over 700 kg and packaging would be impractical in a medium sized car. Then there's the cost element to consider. Tesla charge £17K extra upgrading from 75-100 kWh. It might be nice to have a real 400 mile range, but a) do most people actually need it? and b) would they be prepared to pay for it? For me the answers were no and no, so I stuck with the smaller 75 kWh battery and the 200 mile range is fine and I'm not just pottering around town with an annual mileage of around 15k. It's a full-on large scale 7-seat family hauler.

Over the pond in particular there is significant demand among current Tesla owners for ever bigger battery packs (for their multi-thousand mile road trips) and I suspect Tesla may at some point address those owners, but it's not been their strategy to date - with more focus on building a robust coast-coast Supercharging network which is now largely in place. I would imagine the next gen X/S could have anything up to 200 kWh long haul battery options, but those are going to be seriously expensive cars, so not really mainstream.

The industry does need a 3-Series competitor and Tesla have specifically targeted that market with their Model 3 - which is currently outselling everything in that class over in the US. The Model 3 is available in both 2WD and 4WD variants and a Performance variant. You would fully expect other manufacturers to go for this market too, but where are they? We have a handful of budget options (e.g. Leaf, Zoe), there's the half-arsed VW eGolf, quirky BMW i3 and now a few more high end SUVs coming into the market. Also a few budget SUVs like the new Hyundai Kona with a maximum 64 kWh battery (that's the weight, size and price point that currently works). I think the mainstream industry is counting on competing mainly with PHEVs over the next decade and after driving a full EV I'm certainly not going there! I predict my wife will be ordering a Model 3 when it hits the UK probably late next year. I don't see any direct competition in that timescale and she's no longer interested in hybrids after experiencing a Tesla. I know a lot of other Tesla owners are thinking along the same lines too. Not to mention many current Leaf owners looking to upgrade mainly for the range and Supercharger network.
Col Lamb
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:38 pm
Location: Lancashire

Post by Col Lamb »

My route to my petrol station take me past the JLR dealership so today I took a detour and went in.

Had a look at a RR Vader, or whatever it is called. What a lot of internal plastic, very slippery hard leather seats, nice seating position.

Then walked to the other end of the very large showroom to an iPace to have another look at one and see if they had a demonstrator.

Had a good look around it and still did not change my mind on the lower quality internal materials it has versus our Macan.

So did I get a test drive, well no, not one of the lazy gits that are the Sales staff could be bothered getting off the ass.

The poor Receptionist acosted me on my way out to ask if she could help.

Alas she got blasted about poor Sales service, she asked for my contact details and I said you have them, I gave you them when I came to the iPace launch and since then nobody has been bothered contacting me, so it will be a cold day in hell or a very very substantial discount before I buy another Jag.
Col
Macan Turbo
Air, 20” wheels, ACC, Pano, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, spare wheel, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Met Black, rear airbags
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