BBC News Item re Self Driving Cars

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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Guy wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:32 pm Two observations from the video:

- The Tesla didn't apply the 2 second rule.
- The Tesla didn't appear to 'see' that the car in front was indicating (it didn't need to brake) and slow as a precaution.

Easy software fix?
As above, you can adjust the following distance from very close to miles away at your discretion. Maybe they should make it more speed dependant than it is at present. I set it to maximum following distance in all but stop start crawling traffic and then I'm following other cars with a much larger gap than you see on average. Basically few people actually apply the 2 second rule in reality.

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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:53 pm All it showed to me was that the Tesla system leaves a lot to be desired
Speaking from actual experience, I'd rather have it than not have it. You just need to have some common sense when applying it as you do with any adaptive cruise control. Not once in 5K miles have I had a near accident using Autopilot. There are certainly situations where you would want to override it - like approaching a sudden line of stationary traffic on a motorway, but in normal flowing traffic it works perfectly well. It's not a fully automated driving system at present, just a very good cruise control and lane assist. Probably the best there is available at present.
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Post by Guy »

Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:59 pm Basically few people actually apply the 2 second rule in reality.
Yes, it's about time some of those motorway speed cameras were re-programmed to detect tailgating (as they are in Germany). The consequent prosecutions/fines would be a great way to recoup all that revenue that is going to be lost on petrol and diesel! :D
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Guy wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:15 pm
Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:59 pm Basically few people actually apply the 2 second rule in reality.
Yes, it's about time some of those motorway speed cameras were re-programmed to detect tailgating (as they are in Germany). The consequent prosecutions/fines would be a great way to recoup all that revenue that is going to be lost on petrol and diesel! :D
Absolutely. Tailgating has now reached epidemic proportions in the UK. It's more the exception when you see people actually keeping a safe distance!

I personally find the Tesla Autopilot very good in preventing the temptation to tailgate others when getting impatient, but it does have to be set manually at an appropriate following distance. A speed dependent minimum setting would be more foolproof for sure. Although people would probably then switch if off after being cut up a few times! It can be a compromise sometimes between tailgating or getting people undertaking and then chopping back in front. It pisses me off massively when that happens!
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Post by Col Lamb »

Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:04 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:53 pm All it showed to me was that the Tesla system leaves a lot to be desired
Speaking from actual experience, I'd rather have it than not have it. You just need to have some common sense when applying it as you do with any adaptive cruise control. Not once in 5K miles have I had a near accident using Autopilot. There are certainly situations where you would want to override it - like approaching a sudden line of stationary traffic on a motorway, but in normal flowing traffic it works perfectly well. It's not a fully automated driving system at present, just a very good cruise control and lane assist. Probably the best there is available at present.
Common sense is the problem.

A vast proportion of drivers on the road simply do not have it.

Yes with a responsible alert driver the Tesla Autopilot and other makes systems can be hugely beneficial.

The Tesla system IS NOT foolproof, if it was there would not have been the crashes that there have been and until the system is idiot proof it should not be available.

The idiot who was in the passenger seat whilst their Tesla S did its own thing is testamount that the Tesla system is not idiot proof, for if it were then this guys actions would not have been allowed to happen by the car.
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:55 pm [quote=Dandock post_id=159109 time=<a href="tel:1528813463">1528813463</a> user_id=741]

of autopilot updates issued still work in progress. It’s all very well Tesla blaming drivers for what may or may not have happened immediately prior to any given situation but what is clear and what the updates tell us is that the system has by Tesla’s own admission, been found to be fallible.
And now Mr M is claiming ‘full’ autonomy later this year. Yet greater licence for abuse or greater prescience? Probably both! But if he were building planes I don’t think he’d get the approvals - yet.
As Colin says... still work in progress.
a LOT of people don't understand what a safe following distance actually is!
[/quote]

And therein lies the problem; the human being!
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Post by Dandock »

Based on my current experience in Italy of drivers on the Autostrada seeing some sort of space regardless of the speed of the oncoming traffic and just pulling out without signalling!

Is this where autopilot excels or will it have to be further tailored to specific national driving styles?

A friend of mine who travels extensively describes pulling out into heavy traffic as ‘doing a Cairo!’
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Post by Col Lamb »

Dandock wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:16 pm Based on my current experience in Italy of drivers on the Autostrada seeing some sort of space regardless of the speed of the oncoming traffic and just pulling out without signalling!

Is this where autopilot excels or will it have to be further tailored to specific national driving styles?

A friend of mine who travels extensively describes pulling out into heavy traffic as ‘doing a Cairo!’
This is what I am getting at in making the systems fully idiot proof.

It is absolutely useless putting some sort of a warning on screen saying that the driver has to accept that they have to remain focussed on supervising the Autopilot.

So an idiot driving their Alfa Quadthingy very fast in country X on their motorway cuts up a Tesla S in Autopilot mode so close that the Tesla S has to take avoiding action by changing lanes, but there is a Tesla X also in Autopilot mode in the lane that the Tesla S has moved into and that Tesla X has to take action but the Beamer in its Autopilot mode is cut up by the Tesla X and that has to take avoiding action.

Chaos ensues if the drivers are not concentrating.

Idiot proof is the only way
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm
The Tesla system IS NOT foolproof, if it was there would not have been the crashes that there have been and until the system is idiot proof it should not be available.
If you take that view, then all adaptive cruise control systems should be banned because none of them are foolproof in every scenario, or maybe ALL cars should be banned as none of them are foolproof. That's why there are crashes every single day.
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:55 pm
So an idiot driving their Alfa Quadthingy very fast in country X on their motorway cuts up a Tesla S in Autopilot mode so close that the Tesla S has to take avoiding action by changing lanes, but there is a Tesla X also in Autopilot mode in the lane that the Tesla S has moved into and that Tesla X has to take action but the Beamer in its Autopilot mode is cut up by the Tesla X and that has to take avoiding action.

Chaos ensues if the drivers are not concentrating.

Idiot proof is the only way
Well it doesn't actually work like that in the Tesla i.e. it doesn't take avoiding action by changing lanes. It can only brake and steer within the lane it is already in. It can and does shuffle across to the edge of a lane if something wanders across from either side, but it won't actually change lanes unless you signal or simply steer it yourself manually. It won't even change lanes when you signal if it senses a potential collision in the blind spot - but you can still manually override it with your own steering input in an emergency.

You make out like it's some sort of death trap system, but in reality it's actually very good in normal use. When things get complicated or obviously dangerous you can override it instantly, just like you can with a cruise control. Touch the brakes and it switches off. Steer manually and it switches off. It's that simple.

Just because a few idiots have crashed using Autopilot doesn't make it inherently dangerous. Idiots find ways to crash regardless of what they are driving. There is however room for improvement and the system does get better with every iteration.

We're not talking about fully autonomous driving here. I personally think that holy grail is still a decade or more away, whatever Musk says. He is ambitious about achieving it much sooner, but I think there are too many issues to overcome to make it reliable enough for public use.
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