Elon Musk in hot water again.

The place to discuss everything else..
Post Reply
User avatar
VanB
Posts: 3730
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:58 pm

Post by VanB »

Tesla is no more "whiter than white" than any other big business. Sure they are at the cutting edge of BEV manufacture currently thanks to the vision of the dope-smoking, tranquiliser taking fruit-loop that is Elon Musk. However, they have plenty of faults and there is sufficient news around about their wasteful production techniques, health and safety breaches and so on that they can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue. You can be sure that the Tesla factory due to open in Shanghai will make equal abuses of the labour force that every other company in the region seems to do.
Current - 991.2 GTS C4 GT Silver
Previous: Macan GTS Night Blue
Previous: 981 Cayman S Agate

User avatar
VanB
Posts: 3730
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:58 pm

Post by VanB »

Tesla is no more "whiter than white" than any other big business. Sure they are at the cutting edge of BEV manufacture currently thanks to the vision of the dope-smoking, tranquiliser taking fruit-loop that is Elon Musk. However, they have plenty of faults and there is sufficient news around about their wasteful production techniques, health and safety breaches and so on that they can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue. You can be sure that the Tesla factory due to open in Shanghai will make equal abuses of the labour force that every other company in the region seems to do.
Current - 991.2 GTS C4 GT Silver
Previous: Macan GTS Night Blue
Previous: 981 Cayman S Agate
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

VanB wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:43 pm Tesla is no more "whiter than white" than any other big business. Sure they are at the cutting edge of BEV manufacture currently thanks to the vision of the dope-smoking, tranquiliser taking fruit-loop that is Elon Musk. However, they have plenty of faults and there is sufficient news around about their wasteful production techniques, health and safety breaches and so on that they can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue. You can be sure that the Tesla factory due to open in Shanghai will make equal abuses of the labour force that every other company in the region seems to do.
The only difference with Tesla is the underlying malicious propaganda fuelled by various highly dubious lobbies. They also make great click bait for the popular media, so pretty much anything involving "Tesla" or even a "Tesla" car is considered newsworthy, especially if negative. I very much doubt individual worker disputes would ever make the news if they happened in any other car factory.

If as a customer you decided to take the high moral ground, then you could easily find reasons not to buy any car on the market and definitely not anything from VAG!
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:28 pm
Peteski wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:24 pm
Dandock wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:52 pm

And what from the Far East is relevant in this instance?
Large scale exploitation of factory workers. Obviously not a moral dilemma if you never buy anything produced in the far east, but I'll bet good money you do and plenty of it too.
I’m sure Tesla buy lots from China et al and that we all do whether knowingly or not but one doesn’t expect that from a developed nation. And clearly the judge doesn’t see it as pure click-bait but an issue worthy of full investigation.
That was my point. Most products are made in the far east and that includes many components in a Porsche or any other car. In this particular case it appears to be a couple of individual workers accusing a Tesla sub-contractor of threatening to deport them. Obviously not very nice for those individuals if true, but hardly a reason for someone not to buy a Tesla car!

Individual workplace disputes, bullying and racism are pretty commonplace in developed countries too btw. You need look no further than our own NHS!
User avatar
VanB
Posts: 3730
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:58 pm

Post by VanB »

Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:52 am
VanB wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:43 pm Tesla is no more "whiter than white" than any other big business. Sure they are at the cutting edge of BEV manufacture currently thanks to the vision of the dope-smoking, tranquiliser taking fruit-loop that is Elon Musk. However, they have plenty of faults and there is sufficient news around about their wasteful production techniques, health and safety breaches and so on that they can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue. You can be sure that the Tesla factory due to open in Shanghai will make equal abuses of the labour force that every other company in the region seems to do.
The only difference with Tesla is the underlying malicious propaganda fuelled by various highly dubious lobbies. They also make great click bait for the popular media, so pretty much anything involving "Tesla" or even a "Tesla" car is considered newsworthy, especially if negative. I very much doubt individual worker disputes would ever make the news if they happened in any other car factory.

If as a customer you decided to take the high moral ground, then you could easily find reasons not to buy any car on the market and definitely not anything from VAG!
I think this is solely down to the divisive nature of Elon Musk himself. A polarising, marmite character loathed by many and admired by a few. I very much doubt that anyone has anything but admiration for the technological brilliance displayed in the products.
Current - 991.2 GTS C4 GT Silver
Previous: Macan GTS Night Blue
Previous: 981 Cayman S Agate
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

VanB wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:29 am I think this is solely down to the divisive nature of Elon Musk himself. A polarising, marmite character loathed by many and admired by a few. I very much doubt that anyone has anything but admiration for the technological brilliance displayed in the products.
For sure Musk is newsworthy all on his own and often damaging to the brand, but Tesla is also targeted by plenty of shadowy organisations intent on bringing them down for their own benefit. The aptly named Koch brothers are a prime example, not to mention some of the big mouthed stock shorters.
GMAN75
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:21 am

Post by GMAN75 »

Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:58 am
VanB wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:29 am I think this is solely down to the divisive nature of Elon Musk himself. A polarising, marmite character loathed by many and admired by a few. I very much doubt that anyone has anything but admiration for the technological brilliance displayed in the products.
For sure Musk is newsworthy all on his own and often damaging to the brand, but Tesla is also targeted by plenty of shadowy organisations intent on bringing them down for their own benefit. The aptly named Koch brothers are a prime example, not to mention some of the big mouthed stock shorters.
Peteski et al, here are some figures for you all. These aren't made up:

Tesla Market Cap... $50.29bn
BMW Market Cap...$51 bn

Tesla Revenues....$11.7bn
BMW Revenues....€98.67bn

Tesla 2017 loss...c.$2bn
BMW 2017 profit...€8.7bn

Tesla net equity...$4.2bn
BMW net equity...€54bn

Do you understand why there is so much interest in the shorting of Tesla?? The numbers don't add up. They simply don't work for financial markets or investors. It is, literally, blue sky dot com bubble crash area. These are hard figures. It doesn't matter what you've baked into future earnings, Tesla would have to dominate the entire world's production of EVs to match its valuation. Clearly, it won't. Hence, the shorters.
Col Lamb
Posts: 9323
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:38 pm
Location: Lancashire

Post by Col Lamb »

Very interesting figures there Gman.

One thing about Tesla and Musk is that investors have not been slow in pushing large sums of money their way, so some part of the Financial Market must think it is a worthwhile avenue.

Whilst Musk owns a fair proportion of Tesla he is a long way from total control.
Col
Macan Turbo
Air, 20” wheels, ACC, Pano, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, spare wheel, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Met Black, rear airbags
GMAN75
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:21 am

Post by GMAN75 »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:40 pm Very interesting figures there Gman.

One thing about Tesla and Musk is that investors have not been slow in pushing large sums of money their way, so some part of the Financial Market must think it is a worthwhile avenue.

Whilst Musk owns a fair proportion of Tesla he is a long way from total control.
Markets will always give you enough rope! The trouble starts when they start asking the searching questions. You'll always have the bulls (longs) and the bears (shorts). The bulls will argue over and over about Tesla's possibilities and projections. Trouble is, it is in a space where it has very little time to prove it. The barriers to entry for established and profitable brands aren't as high as you'd think. Yes, Tesla led the way but it cannot maintain it. That's why the bears are looking at it now more critically. Tesla's bonds, the real health indicator of a company, are trading in the 80s down from 98 a year ago. They're yielding almost 9%! That's junk area (Libor + 900!). Insurance on that debt is rocketing too! The company really needs to get a handle on a lot...not just their car delivery!
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:16 pm Do you understand why there is so much interest in the shorting of Tesla?? The numbers don't add up. They simply don't work for financial markets or investors. It is, literally, blue sky dot com bubble crash area. These are hard figures. It doesn't matter what you've baked into future earnings, Tesla would have to dominate the entire world's production of EVs to match its valuation. Clearly, it won't. Hence, the shorters.
Yes I fully understand why they are doing it, but some of them are playing very dirty too - actively funding and spreading misinformation. Tesla depends on its products for long term survival and so far they have been largely on the money. Much like Apple was with its iMac, iPod, iPhone etc. It's perhaps quite telling that an automotive engineer like myself might choose a Tesla over an Audi or Porsche SUV and would never consider buying another ICE car again as a daily driver. It's not because I've lost my mind (well maybe it is!) and they are certainly not without their flaws, but they are amazing unique cars to live with on a daily basis and other manufacturers should take note and get off their arses - which they are finally showing signs of doing - very slowly.

The Model 3 is probably the make or break of Tesla and it looks set to be a major hit. My wife already wants one over a dreary 3-series or C-class and I can see why she would. You talk about Tesla having to dominate the entire world's production of EV's but they might just do that in the next decade. They are already seen as the premium cutting edge EV brand and already sell EVs in higher numbers than any other manufacturer. I posted some of the forecast production numbers for iPace, e-tron, e-Golf, i3, Leaf 2 etc and they are all much lower than Tesla's current output. Model 3 and Model Y volumes will eclipse anything currently planned by legacy manufacturers over the next few years.
Post Reply

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post