Elon Musk in hot water again.

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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.
But in the specific case of Tesla, is it not true that the major short sellers are ultimately attempting to bring the whole company down? It doesn't look like a normal "healthy" trading situation to me and certainly not good for Tesla. Probably one of the main reasons why Musk is now looking to take it private. As far as I can see the short sellers are losing this battle and frankly they deserve to.

Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.
That doesn't mean the stock is actually over-valued though. That's just a "market consensus" based on the here and now of the financials. The future might be quite different and few of those stock traders are likely to have the vision to see the potential. But some investors clearly do, hence the stock price.
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:21 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.
That doesn't mean the stock is actually over-valued though. That's just a "market consensus" based on the here and now of the financials. The future might be quite different and few of those stock traders are likely to have the vision to see the potential. But some investors clearly do, hence the stock price.
But if you're borrowing from the market then that market - your investors - have a right to know certain things and not be treated with distain.
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Post by GMAN75 »

Peteski wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:14 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.
But in the specific case of Tesla, is it not true that the major short sellers are ultimately attempting to bring the whole company down? It doesn't look like a normal "healthy" trading situation to me and certainly not good for Tesla. Probably one of the main reasons why Musk is now looking to take it private. As far as I can see the short sellers are losing this battle and frankly they deserve to.
That is not true. Shorts, as I mentioned, believe that Tesla is fundamentally overvalued. They aren't there to destroy a company. They are there to add balance. As to your other comment, the valuation of a stock is not its value in the "here and now". The market also prices in the future value of a stock. Clearly, and what is seen, there are a group of investors who believe that Tesla has run far too far, far too quickly. In their view and as just an ordinary car manufacturer, it should be measured on metrics akin to any other automaker. Those metrics, as far as they are concerned, have gone out the window. If Musk is keen to class it as an automaker, you get valued as such. Arguably, the rest of the company is insignificant - ie roof tile rubbish and that wall battery thing.

The true value of a company, arguably, is the value of its debt. If you look at Tesla's, it's rated junk and they are borrowing well over market rates. They tells you really what creditors, not Musk, not his cult brigade, think of the company's financial health. If they see some issues, short sellers bet on the equity value, ie its share price, falling. It's as easy as that.
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Post by Paul »

A bit like when you go horse racing and bet on a horse with long odds.....but because you have created an interest in that horse the odds then shorten......😉 ....only you never actually part with any money (😂😂)
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Post by Dandock »

Paul wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:06 pm A bit like when you go horse racing and bet on a horse with long odds.....but because you have created an interest in that horse the odds then shorten......😉 ....only you never actually part with any money (😂😂)
Whilst at the same time the owner is talking up his horse but won’t say that he doesn’t know where the jockey is. 😳
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:45 pm
Peteski wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:14 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.
But in the specific case of Tesla, is it not true that the major short sellers are ultimately attempting to bring the whole company down? It doesn't look like a normal "healthy" trading situation to me and certainly not good for Tesla. Probably one of the main reasons why Musk is now looking to take it private. As far as I can see the short sellers are losing this battle and frankly they deserve to.
That is not true. Shorts, as I mentioned, believe that Tesla is fundamentally overvalued. They aren't there to destroy a company. They are there to add balance. As to your other comment, the valuation of a stock is not its value in the "here and now". The market also prices in the future value of a stock. Clearly, and what is seen, there are a group of investors who believe that Tesla has run far too far, far too quickly. In their view and as just an ordinary car manufacturer, it should be measured on metrics akin to any other automaker. Those metrics, as far as they are concerned, have gone out the window. If Musk is keen to class it as an automaker, you get valued as such. Arguably, the rest of the company is insignificant - ie roof tile rubbish and that wall battery thing.

The true value of a company, arguably, is the value of its debt. If you look at Tesla's, it's rated junk and they are borrowing well over market rates. They tells you really what creditors, not Musk, not his cult brigade, think of the company's financial health. If they see some issues, short sellers bet on the equity value, ie its share price, falling. It's as easy as that.
Yeah right! They are there to make quick cash, nothing more, nothing less. Tesla is IMHO far from an ordinary car manufacturer, so those metrics are likely to be highly flawed. Would you really say the true "value" of a company is the value of its debt today? Seriously? That's got to be the most short sighted viewpoint ever. With a company like Tesla, it's all about future change and again IMHO they have backed the right horse in terms of future personal transport. That's got to be worth a lot of money over the next few decades and hence why there are no shortage of investors pouring money into Tesla. I doubt Apple looked very strong in the financial market when the iMac was first released, but they had the right products and vision for the future. Their true value was certainly not their debt back in 2002!
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:22 pm Musk deserves everything he gets. I can't stand his arrogance and utter disregard for what are extremely clear rules concerning manipulation. Make no mistake, he's picked a fight with the wrong people now.

As to short sellers, they are invaluable in ensuring market efficiency and liquidity.

If Tesla is to succeed, Elon Musk needs to go.
You know the world is a f***** up place when people have more respect for bottom feeding market traders than visionaries trying to make an actual difference. Take away the likes of Musk and other entrepreneurs and you have a very dull and uninspiring future to look forward to.
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Post by GMAN75 »

Peteski, you can hold short positions for as long as you can finance them. Shorts can trade long or short term.

With all due respect, we'll agree to disagree when it comes to Tesla. They have nothing. Packing a chassis full of batteries isn't rocket science. Neither is the physics associated with the electric motor. Musk is a master marketeer - that's it. Competition is now their main enemy and the competition is coming from far more established, far better run and far more accountable entities - those attractive to investors. Musk knows it. Hence his desire to remain in the shadows of privately run companies...accountability.
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Post by Nosmo »

Peteski wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:58 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:22 pm Musk deserves everything he gets. I can't stand his arrogance and utter disregard for what are extremely clear rules concerning manipulation. Make no mistake, he's picked a fight with the wrong people now.

As to short sellers, they are invaluable in ensuring market efficiency and liquidity.

If Tesla is to succeed, Elon Musk needs to go.
You know the world is a f***** up place when people have more respect for bottom feeding market traders than visionaries trying to make an actual difference. Take away the likes of Musk and other entrepreneurs and you have a very dull and uninspiring future to look forward to.
Peteski. Maybe you stop reading the Musk Times. Maybe you should read the story of a short on a company called Herbalife. Then let's talk bottom feeding......
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