Yet more JLR woes

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Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Dandock wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:27 pm UK engineering also suffers from the lack of prestige given to relevant apprenticeships. In Germany children leave school at fifteen for treasured apprenticeship positions. These apprentices and apprenticeships are revered within industry and the personnel highly respected.
Now Mike you have hit the nail on the head.

I served an Engineering Apprenticeship, went on to getba double degree and became a Chartered Engineer.

Level of acknowledgement or respect from others Professions was never high.

Yet the UK still has top quality Engineering personnel.

It has long been my belief that Universities should charge students variable rate for them undertaking courses with those of value to the nation and industry being far less than a media or classics course.
Col
Macan Turbo
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Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:27 pm
Dandock wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:06 pm
happy days wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:40 am

Back to the 70s - Austin 1100 v Morris 1100 v Dolomite v Marina etc etc. All different marques owned by the same group and directly competing with each other - and in sneak the Japanese with, (how dare they!), reliable cars that started in the mornings!
More seriously, I worked on their corporate identity back then and it was a management treacle field and thus total chaos. We never got beyond one particular section as they consistently changed their minds over the logo which then had be redesigned and the whole process of its application started over again.

Added to the rise of Japan the issues driven by the communist controlled unions and disastrous leadership from Donald Stokes and the company never recovered.
It needed strong leadership at the time with straight talking management.

Alas that never happened.

Late seventies I went on a tour of the Ford factory in Liverpool, what a cr4p workforce that simply did not care, we could tell that by their actions and total lack of care, management that was not bothered about quality, all in all it was enlightening.

So at that time rubbish products were not the sole province of British Leyland.
Similar problem, Col. As with much UK industry at that time I think the destructive influence of the Moscow-controlled unions is generally under-estimated. Management to a certain extent had their hands tied. Without getting too political it took a well known confrontation to break that influence.
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Col Lamb
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Location: Lancashire

Post by Col Lamb »

Mike

Very true.

The main problem at the time in UK industry was management by committee, it was the same in the aircraft industry as it was in motor manufacturing. BL needed the right team of directors to push through a culture change within management first then straight talking with the workers, imrovement in quality and production would result in better pay and conditions, non agreement would result in no jobs for anyone.

Well that was the theory.

Getting worker agreement with the likes of Red Robbo influencing them was always going to be hard.
Col
Macan Turbo
Air, 20” wheels, ACC, Pano, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, spare wheel, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Met Black, rear airbags
Dandock
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:29 pm

Post by Dandock »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:08 pm Mike

Very true.

The main problem at the time in UK industry was management by committee, it was the same in the aircraft industry as it was in motor manufacturing. BL needed the right team of directors to push through a culture change within management first then straight talking with the workers, imrovement in quality and production would result in better pay and conditions, non agreement would result in no jobs for anyone.

Well that was the theory.

Getting worker agreement with the likes of Red Robbo influencing them was always going to be hard.
Agreed. Then along came the Japanese with the QM systems and practices in place and...!

It took a long time for those systems and the ethos to work through.

I was working on projects with Rank Xerox in 80s. They’d employed a QM guy - he went on to become Prof of QM at Cranfield - who completely turned around a totally failing facility. And like Honda etc it became a model for the Japanese (Fuji Xerox) to come and study.
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:34 pm
Dandock wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:27 pm UK engineering also suffers from the lack of prestige given to relevant apprenticeships. In Germany children leave school at fifteen for treasured apprenticeship positions. These apprentices and apprenticeships are revered within industry and the personnel highly respected.
Now Mike you have hit the nail on the head.

I served an Engineering Apprenticeship, went on to getba double degree and became a Chartered Engineer.

Level of acknowledgement or respect from others Professions was never high.

Yet the UK still has top quality Engineering personnel.

It has long been my belief that Universities should charge students variable rate for them undertaking courses with those of value to the nation and industry being far less than a media or classics course.
Interesting indeed. My engineering degree was sponsored by Ford (this was around 1990) and at that time Ford were actively trying to raise the image of engineering vs other professional disciplines. For example they had recently introduced a special technical grade path running in parallel to their management grades with allegedly equal salaries, the idea being NOT to inevitably promote all their best engineers into non-technical management roles! But you could see that it was really only a token gesture and the salaries were respectable, but not exactly awe-inspiring.

When I graduated I was offered jobs at Ford, Jaguar, Nissan and MIRA. Nissan was a real eye-opener and not in a good way! They insisted on everyone wearing blue boiler suits and following unbelievably detailed daily routines. That approach might work well on a production line, but not for anyone remotely creative! MIRA was very engineering led as you might expect, but in a very old-fashioned sort of way. The atmosphere there was so dull it was bordering on depressive. Ford and Jaguar were somewhere in the middle. I spent a few undergrad summers working at Ford's R&D centre at Dunton and it was not a bad place to work, but still a bit dull. I remember most of the engineers there were working a lot of over-time back then to boost their salaries. It was a bit of a treadmill and not much creativity around.

So I turned down all those conventional engineering jobs and went straight into motorsport engineering, which is a whole different league in the UK! Suddenly I was working with some seriously talented engineers, earning serious amounts of money, but also putting in mega hours! By comparison I was earning peanuts and the learning curve was unbelievably steep. But it was well worth the effort because top level motorsport in the UK is one of the few industries where engineers are given due respect. It's a very tough industry to work in, but the rewards can be great too. If I was looking to work in the mainstream automotive industry today, I would be looking to move to Germany (as a few of my ex-colleagues did) or maybe go somewhere new like Tesla or even one of the Chinese start-ups like Nio!
Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:54 am
Col Lamb wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:34 pm
Dandock wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:27 pm UK engineering also suffers from the lack of prestige given to relevant apprenticeships. In Germany children leave school at fifteen for treasured apprenticeship positions. These apprentices and apprenticeships are revered within industry and the personnel highly respected.
Now Mike you have hit the nail on the head.

I served an Engineering Apprenticeship, went on to getba double degree and became a Chartered Engineer.

Level of acknowledgement or respect from others Professions was never high.

Yet the UK still has top quality Engineering personnel.

It has long been my belief that Universities should charge students variable rate for them undertaking courses with those of value to the nation and industry being far less than a media or classics course.
Interesting indeed. My engineering degree was sponsored by Ford (this was around 1990) and at that time Ford were actively trying to raise the image of engineering vs other professional disciplines. For example they had recently introduced a special technical grade path running in parallel to their management grades with allegedly equal salaries, the idea being NOT to inevitably promote all their best engineers into non-technical management roles! But you could see that it was really only a token gesture and the salaries were respectable, but not exactly awe-inspiring.

When I graduated I was offered jobs at Ford, Jaguar, Nissan and MIRA. Nissan was a real eye-opener and not in a good way! They insisted on everyone wearing blue boiler suits and following unbelievably detailed daily routines. That approach might work well on a production line, but not for anyone remotely creative! MIRA was very engineering led as you might expect, but in a very old-fashioned sort of way. The atmosphere there was so dull it was bordering on depressive. Ford and Jaguar were somewhere in the middle. I spent a few undergrad summers working at Ford's R&D centre at Dunton and it was not a bad place to work, but still a bit dull. I remember most of the engineers there were working a lot of over-time back then to boost their salaries. It was a bit of a treadmill and not much creativity around.

So I turned down all those conventional engineering jobs and went straight into motorsport engineering, which is a whole different league in the UK! Suddenly I was working with some seriously talented engineers, earning serious amounts of money, but also putting in mega hours! By comparison I was earning peanuts and the learning curve was unbelievably steep. But it was well worth the effort because top level motorsport in the UK is one of the few industries where engineers are given due respect. It's a very tough industry to work in, but the rewards can be great too. If I was looking to work in the mainstream automotive industry today, I would be looking to move to Germany (as a few of my ex-colleagues did) or maybe go somewhere new like Tesla or even one of the Chinese start-ups like Nio!
Also interesting and although on a different level a clear demonstration of the overarching attitude.

Although no engineer I presume that because of the relative simplicity of EVs the sharp end now the power train?
VG Petrol S http://www.porsche-code.com/PHIVCQU7           And a GT3 RS... by Lego! Not crash-tested! 😀
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:58 pm
Peteski wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:54 am
Col Lamb wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:34 pm

Now Mike you have hit the nail on the head.

I served an Engineering Apprenticeship, went on to getba double degree and became a Chartered Engineer.

Level of acknowledgement or respect from others Professions was never high.

Yet the UK still has top quality Engineering personnel.

It has long been my belief that Universities should charge students variable rate for them undertaking courses with those of value to the nation and industry being far less than a media or classics course.
Interesting indeed. My engineering degree was sponsored by Ford (this was around 1990) and at that time Ford were actively trying to raise the image of engineering vs other professional disciplines. For example they had recently introduced a special technical grade path running in parallel to their management grades with allegedly equal salaries, the idea being NOT to inevitably promote all their best engineers into non-technical management roles! But you could see that it was really only a token gesture and the salaries were respectable, but not exactly awe-inspiring.

When I graduated I was offered jobs at Ford, Jaguar, Nissan and MIRA. Nissan was a real eye-opener and not in a good way! They insisted on everyone wearing blue boiler suits and following unbelievably detailed daily routines. That approach might work well on a production line, but not for anyone remotely creative! MIRA was very engineering led as you might expect, but in a very old-fashioned sort of way. The atmosphere there was so dull it was bordering on depressive. Ford and Jaguar were somewhere in the middle. I spent a few undergrad summers working at Ford's R&D centre at Dunton and it was not a bad place to work, but still a bit dull. I remember most of the engineers there were working a lot of over-time back then to boost their salaries. It was a bit of a treadmill and not much creativity around.

So I turned down all those conventional engineering jobs and went straight into motorsport engineering, which is a whole different league in the UK! Suddenly I was working with some seriously talented engineers, earning serious amounts of money, but also putting in mega hours! By comparison I was earning peanuts and the learning curve was unbelievably steep. But it was well worth the effort because top level motorsport in the UK is one of the few industries where engineers are given due respect. It's a very tough industry to work in, but the rewards can be great too. If I was looking to work in the mainstream automotive industry today, I would be looking to move to Germany (as a few of my ex-colleagues did) or maybe go somewhere new like Tesla or even one of the Chinese start-ups like Nio!
Also interesting and although on a different level a clear demonstration of the overarching attitude.

Although no engineer I presume that because of the relative simplicity of EVs the sharp end now the power train?
While EVs are relatively simple in mechanical terms, there are many other new skill sets involved in designing them. Being a mechanical engineer, I don't understand the electrical/electronic systems on an EV other than in layman's terms. From a mechanical engineering perspective they are pretty simple, although primarily as a chassis/suspension design engineer they are more or less the same. But for an ICE engineer I expect the future is looking a bit grim! Developing ICE powertrains is a huge long-term undertaking and further investment is looking extremely dubious in the current climate.
Triple7
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Location: Edgbaston

Post by Triple7 »

JLR’s main issue is Jaguar. LR’s still fly out the door. Nearly all JLR’s agency staff have been let go.

The oil dilution issue is the elephant in the room. I wouldn’t have a JLR product now out of factory warranty. The increase in oil changes in between services appears to just get the car along until out of warranty and not JLR’s problem. It is not a fix.

Hence if I go RRS it will be an SVR, V8 petrol.

I recently tried to buy a run out V6 XE-S. These csrs won’t be Euro compliant and so have ceased to be made. The car’s in stock had to be registered by end Aug. I smelt blood. In the end the max amount of discount I could bleed out of a dealer was 12%, on a car that would lose 50% of it’s value the moment it was registered. Thks appears to be the case on most of the new Jags.

I asked a Dealer Principle whom I have known for a long time, how Jaguar sell any cars. They may dupe someone once, but the residuals are woeful or the RRP is far too high for the product.

I was also offered an F-Type SVR that had been in showroom for over six months earlier this year. Deal of the century I was told. I love Jaguars and wanted an F-Type to replace my current XKR. The cost on a pcp over 3 years was £80,000, yes £80k and you still didn’t own the car. Bonkers.....

Shame, it’s gonna hurt UK manufactuering....
Sold: 2014 Macan Diesel S in Jet Black.
Sold: 2016 Macan GTS in Jet Black.
Cancelled: 2017 Macan Turbo + PP in Jet Black for a RRS.
Ordered: 2019 992 C4S in Jet Black.
To be ordered 2019 Macan Turbo / Turbo S / Turbo + PP. Yeah, it’ll be in Jet Black!
Col Lamb
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:38 pm
Location: Lancashire

Post by Col Lamb »

Triple7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:10 pm JLR’s main issue is Jaguar. LR’s still fly out the door. Nearly all JLR’s agency staff have been let go.

The oil dilution issue is the elephant in the room. I wouldn’t have a JLR product now out of factory warranty. The increase in oil changes in between services appears to just get the car along until out of warranty and not JLR’s problem. It is not a fix.

Hence if I go RRS it will be an SVR, V8 petrol.

I recently tried to buy a run out V6 XE-S. These csrs won’t be Euro compliant and so have ceased to be made. The car’s in stock had to be registered by end Aug. I smelt blood. In the end the max amount of discount I could bleed out of a dealer was 12%, on a car that would lose 50% of it’s value the moment it was registered. Thks appears to be the case on most of the new Jags.

I asked a Dealer Principle whom I have known for a long time, how Jaguar sell any cars. They may dupe someone once, but the residuals are woeful or the RRP is far too high for the product.

I was also offered an F-Type SVR that had been in showroom for over six months earlier this year. Deal of the century I was told. I love Jaguars and wanted an F-Type to replace my current XKR. The cost on a pcp over 3 years was £80,000, yes £80k and you still didn’t own the car. Bonkers.....

Shame, it’s gonna hurt UK manufactuering....
I bought my 3.0 Jag X Type SE in 2003, £33k was the build price.

After a year it was in for its first service and I was offered £15k trade in for it.

11 years after buying I sold it for £1k.

Now I had only actually paid £19k for it (sold shares bought under options).

So my annual depreciation over the period of ownership was less than £1,700 a year.

It was the only way to own a JLR, buy cheap and run it into the ground.
Col
Macan Turbo
Air, 20” wheels, ACC, Pano, SurCam, 14w, LEDs, PS+, Int Light Pack, Heated seats and Steering, spare wheel, SC, Privacy glass, PDK gear, SD mirrors, Met Black, rear airbags
Triple7
Posts: 1457
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:23 pm
Location: Edgbaston

Post by Triple7 »

Only buy a threee year old Jag, still holds true, but I like new cars, but will not stand a hosing like that. Who can, on a Jag FFS.

I took the hit and sold my RRS to a trader, it cost me £16k for two years driving a brand new Range Sport. I was offered a F-Type SVR, sweet I thought. But that car has terrible residuals. It is nearly 50% cheaper to run a £110k RRS SVR, than a £70k Jag SVR. And thats borrowing the money!

Jag is not a premium product anymore, so JLR cannot charge premium prices.

The Ford developed products were the last of the good stuff in both Jag and LR. The TATA stuff is tat by comparison.
Sold: 2014 Macan Diesel S in Jet Black.
Sold: 2016 Macan GTS in Jet Black.
Cancelled: 2017 Macan Turbo + PP in Jet Black for a RRS.
Ordered: 2019 992 C4S in Jet Black.
To be ordered 2019 Macan Turbo / Turbo S / Turbo + PP. Yeah, it’ll be in Jet Black!
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