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Col Lamb
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Location: Lancashire

Post by Col Lamb »

GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:54 am
Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:24 am Why would anyone buy a diesel Bentyaga in the first place? As the article says, it's a £200k car so why would you compromise on the engine? The only reason might be a perceived sense of being a little bit greener and frugal, but that cherry has now well and truly been taken away! One thing is for certain, if it was selling like hot cakes and there were no issues with meeting emissions regulations then VAG would still be selling it. The very fact that they've dropped it either means it wasn't selling or the engine was not capable of meeting near future regulations. The era of luxury diesels is coming to an abrupt end, but will probably soldier on in the mainstream market for another decade or more. Once these wealthy old farts get a taste of EV torque delivery they won't look back and these are the sort of buyers who will have no problem installing home chargers!
Perhaps. As to the home chargers issue, it's not what sort of infrastructure you may be able to install at home that should support your decision on EVs but how your EV can be sustained outside your home in real world driving. People move house too!

I get you have tested them and you have a Tesla which you covet and the rest of it but infrastructure requirements are barely there for EVs. This is fact and despite however much you are in love with their torque delivery, their perceived environmental benefits or whatever. The fact remains that the UK infrastructure to support their usage is in its infancy and the vast majority of people are not early adopters of tech. They will wait. Whilst diesel has been demonised, it is still the preferred fuel for long haulers and distance travellers. EV has a long, long, long way to go to prove that.
A year ago I was of a similar opinion about charging away from home.

Roll on a year and I see charging points in almost every public car park I go into.

Zap Map app shows literary hundreds of charging locations throughout the country.

So the infrastructure is growing and quite probably faster than you think it is.
Col
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GMAN75
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:21 am

Post by GMAN75 »

Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:22 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:54 am
Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:24 am Why would anyone buy a diesel Bentyaga in the first place? As the article says, it's a £200k car so why would you compromise on the engine? The only reason might be a perceived sense of being a little bit greener and frugal, but that cherry has now well and truly been taken away! One thing is for certain, if it was selling like hot cakes and there were no issues with meeting emissions regulations then VAG would still be selling it. The very fact that they've dropped it either means it wasn't selling or the engine was not capable of meeting near future regulations. The era of luxury diesels is coming to an abrupt end, but will probably soldier on in the mainstream market for another decade or more. Once these wealthy old farts get a taste of EV torque delivery they won't look back and these are the sort of buyers who will have no problem installing home chargers!
Perhaps. As to the home chargers issue, it's not what sort of infrastructure you may be able to install at home that should support your decision on EVs but how your EV can be sustained outside your home in real world driving. People move house too!

I get you have tested them and you have a Tesla which you covet and the rest of it but infrastructure requirements are barely there for EVs. This is fact and despite however much you are in love with their torque delivery, their perceived environmental benefits or whatever. The fact remains that the UK infrastructure to support their usage is in its infancy and the vast majority of people are not early adopters of tech. They will wait. Whilst diesel has been demonised, it is still the preferred fuel for long haulers and distance travellers. EV has a long, long, long way to go to prove that.
Installing a home charger is a half-day £400 job, so moving house is really a non-issue for anyone buying a Tesla or any other expensive EV. You basically just need a private driveway or garage, which most people in this market sector would have.

I don't disagree about the on-road charging infrastructure and this is still one of Tesla's big advantages today. Long haul driving in a Tesla is a very relaxing experience. It wouldn't be the same hunting out unreliable public chargers and juggling with multiple payment cards and Apps etc as iPace drivers will shortly be learning. But it will improve as the demand grows and the infrastructure grows with it.

I also agree that diesel is still the preferred choice of fuel for mass-market long distance travellers, but here we are discussing a £200K Bentley and I would say petrol is now firmly the preferred choice for that market, who are probably now wondering why they even considered a diesel in the first place? Petrol hybrids will be the choice of those who have even the slightest concern about city pollution and of course full BEVs for those who can live with the restricted range. So we can expect a slew of upper end EVs hitting the market over the next 5 years to serve this growing market. Tesla have proven that EVs can work in that market, which was previously considered uncharted territory by the industry. It's the mid market that is actually harder to crack with EVs where the Tdi still firmly rules roost for now.
You may be right on the market segments. I also ask the same question on diesel for Porsche. I think diesel, personally, doesn't reside comfortably in the premium end of the market. Maybe, you could state that it doesn't reside comfortably in the premium performance end.
Nonetheless you find exceptions, Audi for one retains it in its super premium SUVs. I guess it's the "rejigging" effect following these diesel scandals. Absent those, perhaps no one would have given it a second thought!
GMAN75
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:21 am

Post by GMAN75 »

Col Lamb wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:34 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:54 am
Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:24 am Why would anyone buy a diesel Bentyaga in the first place? As the article says, it's a £200k car so why would you compromise on the engine? The only reason might be a perceived sense of being a little bit greener and frugal, but that cherry has now well and truly been taken away! One thing is for certain, if it was selling like hot cakes and there were no issues with meeting emissions regulations then VAG would still be selling it. The very fact that they've dropped it either means it wasn't selling or the engine was not capable of meeting near future regulations. The era of luxury diesels is coming to an abrupt end, but will probably soldier on in the mainstream market for another decade or more. Once these wealthy old farts get a taste of EV torque delivery they won't look back and these are the sort of buyers who will have no problem installing home chargers!
Perhaps. As to the home chargers issue, it's not what sort of infrastructure you may be able to install at home that should support your decision on EVs but how your EV can be sustained outside your home in real world driving. People move house too!

I get you have tested them and you have a Tesla which you covet and the rest of it but infrastructure requirements are barely there for EVs. This is fact and despite however much you are in love with their torque delivery, their perceived environmental benefits or whatever. The fact remains that the UK infrastructure to support their usage is in its infancy and the vast majority of people are not early adopters of tech. They will wait. Whilst diesel has been demonised, it is still the preferred fuel for long haulers and distance travellers. EV has a long, long, long way to go to prove that.
A year ago I was of a similar opinion about charging away from home.

Roll on a year and I see charging points in almost every public car park I go into.

Zap Map app shows literary hundreds of charging locations throughout the country.

So the infrastructure is growing and quite probably faster than you think it is.
It may be evolving but it isn't being standardised. Nor are these chargers anywhere close to the rapid chargers required to support practical use of EVs. I guess that's more my issue.
johnd
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:23 pm

Post by johnd »

GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:37 pm It may be evolving but it isn't being standardised. Nor are these chargers anywhere close to the rapid chargers required to support practical use of EVs. I guess that's more my issue.
Not sure that's a fully accurate summary. Most of the EU manufacturers and eg some Koreans now too seem to be standardising on CCS, but a lot of the rapid chargers seem to be dual CCS/ChaDemo anyway, with Tesla ploughing their own furrow & network. What would you call a rapid charger - 50kW DC and more? If so then there are more and more every month. Just discovered that there's a new 50kW charger about a mile down the road from me in fairly rural East Cambs - in a new council-sponsored leisure site (swimming pool etc), which seems to be one of the main routes by which new chargers are being built out, ie council-sponsored/owned locations, including public car parks.

Just look at Zap-map and filter on eg CCS and 50kW and you'll see there's starting to be a reasonable coverage. In 6-12 months time, there'll be substantially more. Given the lead time for a new EV order is likely to be 4-6 months that's not too bad. I'm sure it will be a long time before there's the ubiquity of petrol filling stations, though I can imagine that more and more of these will start closing once EVs take more of a hold - say in the 5-10 year time-frame.
Last edited by johnd on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm
Peteski wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:22 pm
GMAN75 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:54 am

Perhaps. As to the home chargers issue, it's not what sort of infrastructure you may be able to install at home that should support your decision on EVs but how your EV can be sustained outside your home in real world driving. People move house too!

I get you have tested them and you have a Tesla which you covet and the rest of it but infrastructure requirements are barely there for EVs. This is fact and despite however much you are in love with their torque delivery, their perceived environmental benefits or whatever. The fact remains that the UK infrastructure to support their usage is in its infancy and the vast majority of people are not early adopters of tech. They will wait. Whilst diesel has been demonised, it is still the preferred fuel for long haulers and distance travellers. EV has a long, long, long way to go to prove that.
Installing a home charger is a half-day £400 job, so moving house is really a non-issue for anyone buying a Tesla or any other expensive EV. You basically just need a private driveway or garage, which most people in this market sector would have.

I don't disagree about the on-road charging infrastructure and this is still one of Tesla's big advantages today. Long haul driving in a Tesla is a very relaxing experience. It wouldn't be the same hunting out unreliable public chargers and juggling with multiple payment cards and Apps etc as iPace drivers will shortly be learning. But it will improve as the demand grows and the infrastructure grows with it.

I also agree that diesel is still the preferred choice of fuel for mass-market long distance travellers, but here we are discussing a £200K Bentley and I would say petrol is now firmly the preferred choice for that market, who are probably now wondering why they even considered a diesel in the first place? Petrol hybrids will be the choice of those who have even the slightest concern about city pollution and of course full BEVs for those who can live with the restricted range. So we can expect a slew of upper end EVs hitting the market over the next 5 years to serve this growing market. Tesla have proven that EVs can work in that market, which was previously considered uncharted territory by the industry. It's the mid market that is actually harder to crack with EVs where the Tdi still firmly rules roost for now.
You may be right on the market segments. I also ask the same question on diesel for Porsche. I think diesel, personally, doesn't reside comfortably in the premium end of the market. Maybe, you could state that it doesn't reside comfortably in the premium performance end.
Nonetheless you find exceptions, Audi for one retains it in its super premium SUVs. I guess it's the "rejigging" effect following these diesel scandals. Absent those, perhaps no one would have given it a second thought!
I think the diesel scandals have simply made buyers re-think their reasons for buying a premium diesel in the first place. For all the Tdi reps ploughing up and down the motorway networks all week, diesel still makes sense. But for those spending £60K+ on their personal premium car diesel was mainly just a trend, that is now suddenly very questionable. For sure it's nice to have lower fuel consumption, but now there are other choices to achieve economy that eclipse diesel anyway. It is now becoming very clear that the premium sector will be all about hybrids and full EVs over the next 2 decades.
muxty

Post by muxty »

It's interesting that those who have the biggest range anxiety and state that the charging infrastructure is a big issue today are those who completely lack real world experience. Oh, the irony ;)

I have 80.000km of Tesla driving over the last 2 years throughout Europe. For my driving needs and driving pattern it is actually more convenient with a Tesla than with any of my former vehicles running on diesel and petrol. Yes, I do have a charger at my house and this is of course an important key to the convenience aspect.

Often those who state facts like this are called out to be "Evangelists" or similar. But I can with 100% confidence say that this is not true at all. If it wasn't convenient I would have switched back to petrol in a heart beat. Because I'm no greenie and doesn't drive a Tesla because of environment reasons. I do it because it is more practical, cheaper and also more fun.

Honest questions to all of you who are a bit negative about EVs... Why is that? Why do you need to be negative about something that you haven't tested? I still can't get my head around this...
Macananon
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:15 pm

Post by Macananon »

Good for you.

Personally though for my requirements the range is a big issue.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Macananon wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:10 pm Good for you.

Personally though for my requirements the range is a big issue.
Not saying you don't personally need a 500 mile range, but most people start out with that premise when first thinking about EVs. They can require a change in attitude to long distance driving, but it's generally a good change for your health. I have roughly half the range I had with our previous car, but on a daily basis it's actually easier to live with. In an ideal world I would prefer maybe another 100 miles for ultimate flexibility, but the additional cost and weight of a bigger battery would soon put me off. For me the tipping point was a 200 mile range, which comfortably covers all my daily driving and makes long haul trips pretty acceptable with sensible stops.
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VanB
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Post by VanB »

My ideal would be an EV 911 with a range of 200 miles +. Job done :)
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

VanB wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:49 pm My ideal would be an EV 911 with a range of 200 miles +. Job done :)
Ha, ha, I'm waiting for that one too! The Taycan could be close, but probably more Panamera than 911.
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