Why you have (probably) already bought your last car

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johnd
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Post by johnd »

Dandock wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:24 pm Well they’ve made a start - if the embryonic Ionity coverage is anything to by. Notable absent from the U.K. though! 😱
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... -this-year

(FWIW - I don't claim any first-hand knowledge.)
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Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

Whilst somewhat chaotic in nature so far you cannot deny that the volume of charging stations has increased dramatically in the last couple of years.

Tesla excluded that is, as they have been correct, installing a rapid charging network based upon the high speed road network. This is surely the correct way forward with the charging network, rapid high speed booster charging points!

One thing I fail to grasp is this apparent pre-conception that some of you seem to have in that the EV battery needs to be fully charged each day.

Even if you have an EV with a range of 150 miles then for by far the vast majority a commute to work and back is likely to be only 20 miles total per day therefore, my own for 15 years was less than 30 miles per day and that was travelling from one town to another.
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johnd
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Post by johnd »

Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:41 am One thing I fail to grasp is this apparent pre-conception that some of you seem to have in that the EV battery needs to be fully charged each day.
Not sure to what extent it's a preconception by many, though doubtless by some. My take is that (assuming you can home-charge) you might automatically take the 10-20 seconds to attach the charger every night, but far more as a matter of habit than of necessity. If you can leave the house with 100% of battery every day then why wouldn't you? If you leave it eg 3-4 days between charging as a matter of routine then you might find yourself one day unexpectedly needing to take a longer journey without being fully charged up.

The one bit I'm not totally sure about is whether or not it's really recommended to charge to eg 100% literally every day - not obvious why it wouldn't be but just wondering.
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Nosmo
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Post by Nosmo »

Peteski wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:22 am
Nosmo wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:35 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:37 pm Interesting article, it is certainly not going to take the 100 years as Goron eludes but only 21 if the banning of ICEs does occur Globally by 2040.

Governments, markets, environmental etc, all play their part but did Germany not recently pass an edict that their date for banning ICE cars should be 2030.

If Germany stick to this date then we can expect a very rapid change in the 20’s from ICE to EV by the German manufacturers.
The operative word here, I believe, is IF. Germany is massively reliant on car manufacturing (15% of GDP??) and in the top 5 of car manufacturers globally. The politicians will pull the trigger when they are told by VAG, BMW and Mercedes that they are ready. The recent announcement for Porsche to take the lead on developing group platforms and systems seems logical from a cost sharing perspective. Merc and BMW will forge their EV alliances as they did with ICE.

Just a thought
Since when has being massively dependent on a specific industry guaranteed its future survival, especially given major changes in technology? Our own recent history is littered with entire industry failures!
I forgot UK coal and the superbly well built and profitable Leyland / Rover etc automotive industries. Without initially the UK govt, Ford and now Tata, JLR would have gone the same way. Mining moved to cheaper labour countries and better, more reliably engineered cars in the 70s and 80s did it for the automotive industry in this country. I am old enough to recall Honda (in first instance) helping BL on the latter and the furore that caused.

I may be misguided to think that profitable industries, in the process of adapting to new rules and regulation and technologies, representing ~15% of GDP and 100s thousands of jobs and supply chain jobs are meaningless to politicians elected on sentiment by the very ppl impacted.

There is no guarantee that any of the current (German / global) manufacturers will survive. Granted. However, no politician worth his salt (well maybe a few exceptions even in this country) will pull the trigger whilst this adaptation to EV is taking place.

One more thing, deep pockets and a healthy balance sheet (as well as a kick up the back-side (VW) in terms of penalties for non-compliance / cheating will incentivise and allow profitable manufacturers time to adapt.
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

johnd wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm The one bit I'm not totally sure about is whether or not it's really recommended to charge to eg 100% literally every day - not obvious why it wouldn't be but just wondering.
It's well documented that charging lithium batteries to 100% is not good for their long term degradation, especially if you leave them sat at 100% (or above 90% really) for extended periods of time. So if charging to 100%, you should aim to do so just before you start your journey, not leave it for hours on end sitting at 100%. The Tesla recommendation is to charge to a maximum of 90% on a daily basis and only above that when you actually need to. On most days I charge to 80% and top up whenever convenient. Similarly it's not good practice to leave these batteries sitting below 20% for extended periods, so always put straight on charge when arriving back with sub 20% charge.

Having said all that, Tesla batteries can be abused pretty much as you like with little loss of performance. The battery management is very good and works hard to protect the cells when given a hard time (for example critical cell balancing is very accurate). I think Leaf owners have had a much more patchy experience with battery degradation.
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Post by Dandock »

Given VWs recent and ongoing American punishment of installing EV charging infrastructure in the US it hardly seems likely that they will now fail as a group to capitalise on that investment.
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Col Lamb
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Post by Col Lamb »

johnd wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:41 am One thing I fail to grasp is this apparent pre-conception that some of you seem to have in that the EV battery needs to be fully charged each day.
Not sure to what extent it's a preconception by many, though doubtless by some. My take is that (assuming you can home-charge) you might automatically take the 10-20 seconds to attach the charger every night, but far more as a matter of habit than of necessity. If you can leave the house with 100% of battery every day then why wouldn't you? If you leave it eg 3-4 days between charging as a matter of routine then you might find yourself one day unexpectedly needing to take a longer journey without being fully charged up.

The one bit I'm not totally sure about is whether or not it's really recommended to charge to eg 100% literally every day - not obvious why it wouldn't be but just wondering.
As Peterski explained batteries need to be operated correctly.

Charging them up to 100% every night is not the way to maintain the longeivity of the battery pack.

If you are low on capacity and need that longer journey you wrote about then a short visit to a rapid charging unit will give the boost required.

In any case you do not keep your petrol or diesel fuel tank topped up, just in case you need to go on that longer journey. You will stop off at the filling station to top up, its the same with an EV or at least it will be.

In fact if you are environmentally aware you will keep the fuel tank low, since a full tank of fuel means you are hauling around the equivalent of the weight of another person on the daily journeys, just in case!
Col
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Dandock
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Post by Dandock »

Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:48 pm
johnd wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:41 am One thing I fail to grasp is this apparent pre-conception that some of you seem to have in that the EV battery needs to be fully charged each day.
Not sure to what extent it's a preconception by many, though doubtless by some. My take is that (assuming you can home-charge) you might automatically take the 10-20 seconds to attach the charger every night, but far more as a matter of habit than of necessity. If you can leave the house with 100% of battery every day then why wouldn't you? If you leave it eg 3-4 days between charging as a matter of routine then you might find yourself one day unexpectedly needing to take a longer journey without being fully charged up.

The one bit I'm not totally sure about is whether or not it's really recommended to charge to eg 100% literally every day - not obvious why it wouldn't be but just wondering.
As Peterski explained batteries need to be operated correctly.

Charging them up to 100% every night is not the way to maintain the longeivity of the battery pack.

If you are low on capacity and need that longer journey you wrote about then a short visit to a rapid charging unit will give the boost required.

In any case you do not keep your petrol or diesel fuel tank topped up, just in case you need to go on that longer journey. You will stop off at the filling station to top up, its the same with an EV or at least it will be.

In fact if you are environmentally aware you will keep the fuel tank low, since a full tank of fuel means you are hauling around the equivalent of the weight of another person on the daily journeys, just in case!
Except thats there's currently a fundamental time difference between filling or topping up your tank and topping up your change.

And albeit a full tank is lugging around a weight it isn't always geographically convenient and cost effective to get to the filling station.
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:48 pm
If you are low on capacity and need that longer journey you wrote about then a short visit to a rapid charging unit will give the boost required.
If you know beforehand that you will need a full charge when next setting out, you simply schedule it to charge up to 100% with the charge ending say 30 mins before the start of your journey. So you minimise the time spent at or close to full charge. It's always good practice to end a charge just before you go out anyway as charging warms up the battery so you are not setting off cold, which is inefficient. My daily routine is to charge up to a nominal 70% whenever I arrive home and then add another 10% (or whatever I need that day) first thing in the morning before I set off. My 8 kW home charger can add 10% charge per hour, which is pretty easy to manage. So if I wake up at 7:30, I can add 10% charge and warm up the battery by 8:30 to get the most efficient usage. All done via a simple scheduling App. Can also warm up the cabin 10 mins before leaving while still using mains power.
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Tom 2000
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Post by Tom 2000 »

Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:48 pm
johnd wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:41 am One thing I fail to grasp is this apparent pre-conception that some of you seem to have in that the EV battery needs to be fully charged each day.
Not sure to what extent it's a preconception by many, though doubtless by some. My take is that (assuming you can home-charge) you might automatically take the 10-20 seconds to attach the charger every night, but far more as a matter of habit than of necessity. If you can leave the house with 100% of battery every day then why wouldn't you? If you leave it eg 3-4 days between charging as a matter of routine then you might find yourself one day unexpectedly needing to take a longer journey without being fully charged up.

The one bit I'm not totally sure about is whether or not it's really recommended to charge to eg 100% literally every day - not obvious why it wouldn't be but just wondering.
As Peterski explained batteries need to be operated correctly.

Charging them up to 100% every night is not the way to maintain the longeivity of the battery pack.

If you are low on capacity and need that longer journey you wrote about then a short visit to a rapid charging unit will give the boost required.

In any case you do not keep your petrol or diesel fuel tank topped up, just in case you need to go on that longer journey. You will stop off at the filling station to top up, its the same with an EV or at least it will be.

In fact if you are environmentally aware you will keep the fuel tank low, since a full tank of fuel means you are hauling around the equivalent of the weight of another person on the daily journeys, just in case!
Filled tank emptied to one quarter capacity means carrying on average about 65%. A half tank run to near empty runs at about 30%. The difference is about 35% of say 75 kg. About 25kg or 4 stones. Equivalent to half a small blonde.
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