Another one bites the dust. Honda closing Swindon

[Miopyk]

Interesting questions and happy to share my views.

I didn't really listen to the arguments from either side as I'd made my mind up before the referendum was announced.

After Maastricht I concluded that the European Experiment would either end up as a United States of Europe with member states forgoing all real power to a European Federal Government or be doomed to failure due the fiscal and political incompatibilities between member states. The later nearly came true with Greece almost at the point of crashing out of the Euro had it not been for the intervention of the political elite in the EU realising their Experiment could well be over unless Greece was saved. I was working in Athens at the time and it wasn't a happy place.

As a nation I don't believe that we are compatible with the direction Europe is heading, it's political ambitions or the price we would ultimately pay if/when it fails. That isn't to say I don't like Europe. I have travelled and worked extensively throughout many countries, have many friends that live there and have seen many benefits the EU has had to some of the less advantaged as well as the enormous waste, partly at our expense.

I'm not opposed to strong economic ties and to a certain extent a customs union but this has to be fair to both sides. I don't have a problem with migration. If people want to come here, work hard, pay their taxes and make a contribution to our society then I say "Welcome".

The sad thing is that UK politicians on all sides have made 2 mistakes. First was not realising that the EU will never back down if it thinks the European Experiment could be fatally damaged. The second was to put their party politics and personal views ahead of the people that elected them and this has led to the current impasse. Again, I agree that the referendum was flawed, you cannot answer a complex question with a one word answer. But don't you think it was designed that way to keep it as simple as possible but it backfired and we voted to leave. And that is important to note.

The 3rd mistake was on the part of the EU. They've always known that the UK has never really bought into their Grand Experiment and has been a constant thorn in their sides since we joined but our economic clout has allowed us to get away with this for longer than they liked. When Cameron went to ask for concessions (to essentially appease the sceptics in his own party) they paid him lip service and sent him away like Oliver. How dare he ask for more. They underestimated the UKs natural distrust of Europe based on centuries of conflict (taught in every UK school) and the popular press who do like to highlight how dishonest our European neighbours are regardless of the truth and The ERG and others of course jumped on this and this is no doubt the lies you are referring to. That's not to say the Remainers were completely honest either, both sides were more than economical with the truth. On balance though think of this. If we went back to the EU tomorrow and asked for many more economic and or political concessions if we agreed to stay do you think they would fall over themselves to oblige? I wonder.

If it helps I think the next global conflict will start with trade and escalate from there. It's interesting that Italy has opened the Silk Road today by signing a deal with China and where that will take the EU in the future who knows. But if it gets to the point where the chips are down, I'd be inclined to side with Churchill if you know your history.

Thanks for sharing Miopyk, I see your arguments are centred around history, tactical/political errors and potential of full integration with the EU. I thought that UK has seen the value of large economic blocks (e.g. British Empire) especially being at the helm.

UK is the second largest economy in EU and has a VETO vote on the EU council, so I don’t see an issue. You can simply block any proposals that would adversely affect UK. What am I missing?

To be clear, I’m not arguing a case I’m only sharing my opinion and yes when I formulate an opinion on something as important as this I tend to look at It in much more detail including the historical events that took us to where we are today. You can choose to agree or disagree with my opinion as you see fit and I’m happy for you to have a different opinion as I hope you would respect mine. I’m certainly not going to try and change your mind or convince you I’m right, you’re intelligent enough to come to your own conclusions.

As for the EU being an economic bloc, you are right that is what we joined and we’ve generally enjoyed the benefit of membership but it’s not been without cost. The change is that the EU is slowly morphing from an economic bloc to a political bloc and this is something I disagree with. You’re also correct that we have right of veto. But use of that would very much depend on who is in power in Westminster at that time and how strong they are in being able to use that veto even if they wanted to. An extreme Europhile would probably think what’s in our interest would be very different to someone in the ERG.

At the end of the day I hope that I’ve given you an insight to how I came to my conclusions and you all have the humility to respect them. If you choose to disagree then that’s fine, I respect that too. I think that this is one of the friendliest forums I’ve ever been on and generally the members treat each other with respect which makes it a nice place to come and chat.

[Miopyk]

Exactly.

Let's also throw in the Greek crisis to the argument to confuse things but conveniently forget the structural mess the Greeks were in before entering the EMU. BUT...it's all the EU's fault! Give me a break.

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

[GMAN75]

Exactly.

Let's also throw in the Greek crisis to the argument to confuse things but conveniently forget the structural mess the Greeks were in before entering the EMU. BUT...it's all the EU's fault! Give me a break.

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

[Miopyk]

Exactly.

Let's also throw in the Greek crisis to the argument to confuse things but conveniently forget the structural mess the Greeks were in before entering the EMU. BUT...it's all the EU's fault! Give me a break.

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

So what about Germany and the IMF?

[Miopyk]

Exactly.

Let's also throw in the Greek crisis to the argument to confuse things but conveniently forget the structural mess the Greeks were in before entering the EMU. BUT...it's all the EU's fault! Give me a break.

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

So according to you, Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry and you want us to stay in the EU. I rest my case. And I really am rolling about laughing, You couldn't make that up.

[GMAN75]

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

So what about Germany and the IMF?

It's a conundrum no doubt. You have a lender, or a lender's representative, imposing austerity as a condition of continuing liquidity and you have a secondary lender stating that austerity may not be the panacea it also once advocated. I would add however, the IMF imposes its own medicine through privatisations and deregulation. Austerity has harmed countless people in Greece. My relatives are subsidised by family abroad but even they, still (!) question how it got so bad.

Nonetheless, they also raise the question as to how they would exist outside the EU, alone. They question how reinstating the drachma would ever help. Who would buy it?? What value would it hold? What trust is left? Is it still better to remain within Euro and EU and go through the pain where, ultimately, something may emerge?

There is no doubt there is anger but a lot of it is directed at Greek politicians, past and present.

These problems are quite apart as to what will be faced here. We are also still in austerity and you will find that as the country leaves the EU, the economy will shrink. It has already started with growth stalling, investment deferred and indeed cancelled.

In my view, the country will be forced to either borrow more or raise taxation to unsustainable levels. If you couple that with inevitable price rises and indeed shortages of products, you will see inflation. Then you will see inevitable interest rate rises and a general economic squeeze. This is AFTER trying to wind back austerity!!

Couple this with people who have voted because of blatant prejudice or "what may happen if" scenarios and a political class which excel at failure, overspending and inefficiencies, I cannot see how leaving presents opportunities.

The Greeks weighed it all up and stayed. The UK, however, must know better. I think not.

[GMAN75]

As I've got a couple of hours to waste today and I've found your latest post mildly amusing I thought I'd help you out since your knowledge on the subject seems to be somewhat lacking and you seem to be confused on the EMUs relationship with the EU. The fact that you work in the Finance Industry makes this in itself mildly worrying.

Anyway I digress. You're right the Greeks have a history of default on their debts and their taxation system at the time of the crisis was rudimentary at best. As a people, and I am generalising here, they also have historically had a very negative view on paying taxes and I could share some amusing stories on ingenious ways some of them have gone about tax avoidance including disguising a swimming pool as a fish pond. But you would need to understand their taxation system to understand why that's amusing.

So let's come to the EMU. Despite the their inability to accurately describe the financial state of the country at the time and their overal lackadaisical approach to fiscal management who decided to admit the Greeks to the EMU? What rules were bent in order for them to meet the entry criteria? After they were admitted who allowed them to borrow Billions of Euros way beyond agreed GDP limits from European Banks to spend on projects that have had no long term benefit to the Greek people but significantly benefited the companies that sold and built them. And most of those were not Greek but from another country whose name starts with G.

Here's a link you might find interesting. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/galle ... n-pictures .

If you think that had nothing to do with the EU then who do you think was it to do with? You might want to go and look up Yanis Varoufakis and see what he has to say on the subject although this will of course be generally from the Greek perspective.

In conclusion, in a previous post on this subject you said "You glibly go on about voting to leave as though it's a chest thumping joke. What you've done is actually far worse. You have no idea and if you had no idea you should have thought harder rather than show your ignorance publicly. You should be ashamed of what you've levied on this country for your unicorn ideals. Idiots."

In contrast to this I think it can easily be concluded that it is you that has no idea and have publicly shown your ignorance on the subject and continue to do so with each subsequent post. But I suspect you're also not clever enough to realise this and will continue regardless.

Let's see what words you can string together next and if you're clever enough to get them in the right order.

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

So according to you, Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry and you want us to stay in the EU. I rest my case. And I really am rolling about laughing, You couldn't make that up.

Yeah...and all guys driving voodoo blue Macans are secretly compensating for something. You lije generalising as well?? Look...enjoy your country. Like I said, I hope you get what you want. I'm nicely hedged...you aren't. Good luck.

[Miopyk]

You want to go and quote Varoufakis??! Lol! You're kidding. The Greeks are kings of corruption. They gambled and lost their way well before their entry to the EMU. Varoufakis's ideas were ultimately simple. Exit the Euro, reinstate the drachma, and ultimately, bring the country to its knees anyway. In no way, in absolutely no way, did he ever have a root and branch restructuring model for the Greek economy. He's so far left, together with Tsipras, that they would have happily continued the handout/grafting led crap that got them into this mess in the first place. Don't try and lionise Varoufakis.

The Greeks rode their luck and lost. Don't blame the guys giving you the liquidity. Ultimately you blame its management and its mandate. Both if which were a mess.

Btw, don't lecture a Greek about the culture. You'll lose.

So according to you, Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry and you want us to stay in the EU. I rest my case. And I really am rolling about laughing, You couldn't make that up.

Yeah...and all guys driving voodoo blue Macans are secretly compensating for something. You lije generalising as well?? Look...enjoy your country. Like I said, I hope you get what you want. I'm nicely hedged...you aren't. Good luck.

Right, so Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry, you want us to stay in the EU and now you don't see the UK as your country.

Brilliant, Absolutely Brilliant. You really are Brilliant. I thought you were being obtuse but you're actually being serious. Brilliant. Come on please keep them coming, this is the funniest Sunday I've had in a long time.

[GMAN75]

So according to you, Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry and you want us to stay in the EU. I rest my case. And I really am rolling about laughing, You couldn't make that up.

Yeah...and all guys driving voodoo blue Macans are secretly compensating for something. You lije generalising as well?? Look...enjoy your country. Like I said, I hope you get what you want. I'm nicely hedged...you aren't. Good luck.

Right, so Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry, you want us to stay in the EU and now you don't see the UK as your country.

Brilliant, Absolutely Brilliant. You really are Brilliant. I thought you were being obtuse but you're actually being serious. Brilliant. Come on please keep them coming, this is the funniest Sunday I've had in a long time.

I'm a professional. I go where my services are needed and paid for. Right now it's the UK and I once thought I was comfortable here. It may change. It more than likely will now. Given what I feel, no, the UK is now obviously not my country. So...you can keep it all to your little self.

[Miopyk]

Yeah...and all guys driving voodoo blue Macans are secretly compensating for something. You lije generalising as well?? Look...enjoy your country. Like I said, I hope you get what you want. I'm nicely hedged...you aren't. Good luck.

Right, so Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry, you want us to stay in the EU and now you don't see the UK as your country.

Brilliant, Absolutely Brilliant. You really are Brilliant. I thought you were being obtuse but you're actually being serious. Brilliant. Come on please keep them coming, this is the funniest Sunday I've had in a long time.

I'm a professional. I go where my services are needed and paid for. Right now it's the UK. It may change. It more than likely will now. Given what I feel, no, the UK is obviously not my country. So...you can keep it all to your little self.

Right, so Greeks are Kings of corruption, you're a Greek, you work in the finance industry, you want us to stay in the EU, you don't see the UK as your country and now you want me to keep my country to myself. Sorry, wasn't I clear? That's what I voted for.