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Ferdie
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Post by Ferdie »

Interesting comments on efficiency. I recall (mathematical) dimensional analysis indicates you can’t compare MPG with Wh/mile the common unit is (probably) best expressed as £/mile. Which I think electric easily wins on if you can disregard time which I value at £100/hr (being retired life is short), so long journeys are considerably impacted.
Also, my feeling is temperature is a bigger impact than you state johnd, although I grant not so much in this country but in Scandinavian country I would expect it to be near 50% hit in winter on £/mile. Anyone know :? ?

I feel a spreadsheet coming on when the time approaches to tackle the subject of which electric car to buy. :lol: :lol:
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Nuclear Nick
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Post by Nuclear Nick »

Ah, I see, thanks John. Yes I understand the efficiency merits and demerits of e propulsion v fossil particularly, as you say, on shorter journeys. But aren’t the other issues at higher speeds, drag, etc the same for both fuels?
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Post by johnd »

Ferdie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:46 pm Interesting comments on efficiency. I recall (mathematical) dimensional analysis indicates you can’t compare MPG with Wh/mile the common unit is (probably) best expressed as £/mile.
Not sure anyone's suggesting a direct equivalence between mpg and Wh/mile, simply that BEVs are most efficient over low speed (typically shorter distance) journeys while the converse tends to be broadly true for fossil cars (though sustained high speed will obviously hit mpg). So estimated range will be greater if a BEV has recently been used for lower speed trips. And mpg and Wh/mile are simply the most convenient units to use when looking at the trend in efficiency with speed.

It's tricky to use £/mile as a comparator when the cost of electricity varies so much from nominally zero (eg public charger on free vend or using your own solar power or a Tesla with a free plan) up to the 69p/kWh Ionity charge being discussed here. But I guess 15p/kWh is probably an overall average for home charging.
Also, my feeling is temperature is a bigger impact than you state johnd, although I grant not so much in this country but in Scandinavian country I would expect it to be near 50% hit in winter on £/mile. Anyone know :? ?
What, effect of temperature on BEV efficiency/range you mean? I don't _know_ but wouldn't expect it to be anything like 50%, but it would depend on things like the battery having a well-engineered liquid cooling & heating system so that it can adapt quickly to ambient conditions (and not eg a Leaf). I think the most efficient temperature for a BEV is reckoned to be low 20's C when there's less demand for battery conditioning or cabin HVAC. But low temperatures often seem to have other factors in play as well like wet roads and hence more rolling resistance, head winds etc. These factors affect fossil cars too of course but we just don't think about them.
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Post by Ferdie »

I think I see your thinking. In the end the economic decision will be judged by £/ml for most, within the limits of tolerance for any individual. Good point on the variation of p/kWh, we all dislike the motorway service fill up because it is expensive ~+20% but over 400% :o. (still less than petrol? ;) ) I would be very happy with a electric as a run around because it would be at the 15p/whr most of the time :D but I am not there with it for longer trips or for motoring pleasure.

People drive old MGs around not for fuel economy benefits, performance or cost of ownership but fun. I hope that remains and I hope to retain a car for that use.

Weather, drag, tyres are approximately neutral as that applies to any car of the same design and yes probably are more significant impact on daily costs but higher weight of equivalent BEV is a negative for it.

I can't recall what a starting battery temperature needs to be but self heating is going to ding the battery capacity in cold climes and yes probably not real impact in UK most of the time, we may be near the ideal climate as 15C'ish is probably not too cold to use out of the box and also you never have to force batter cooling either (for run a rounds).

Having seen the chassis of a Tesla in the Mall I was impressed at the simplicity of the mechanics or so it seemed, we all know nothing is simple the devil is ...... :lol: :lol: -------- this is the sort of discussion where one needs to have a beer in ones hand :lol:
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Post by johnd »

Ferdie wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:33 am I think I see your thinking. In the end the economic decision will be judged by £/ml...
Just to be 100% clear, my comment about different efficiency regimes vs journey type for BEV and fossil cars was purely an explanation of why the reported range appeared to degrade on the I-Pace in that video. It was nothing to do with economics, which is a completely different matter.

BEVs will typically average 5p/mile, perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 of a comparable fossil car just looking at energy costs. But purchase or PCP costs and maintenance costs obviously need to be factored in too for the whole cost picture. Now is probably not the best time to make a call on how relative costs will evolve. BEVs are still relatively expensive like for like and while long-term maintenance costs on BEVs promise to be relatively low (there's basically less to go wrong or that needs maintaining with them), their track record is not really established yet. It looks fairly clear that battery maintenance won't be any sort of issue - Tesla are rumoured to be announcing their 'million-mile car battery' in the near future. But maybe by 2025 and with the steady drop in battery costs then comparable BEV and fossil cars will be roughly cost equivalent, and then in all probability the economic argument to buy BEV may be difficult to resist.
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Post by Ferdie »

I take your first point on board (which I had not fully before) and agree the with thinking in your second point. It will certainly be interesting to see how things develop and how it is working by 2040 may only be traveling in my Bath Chair by then :)
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Post by Taz »

I’ve read with interest, the posts following my initial posting. I’m slightly surprised that there were no comments about the price of the Ipace, which at £88,000 seems exorbitant to me when you compare it to a Macan of similar specification.
So when is this ‘old enough to know better’ supposed to kick in ?

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Post by johnd »

Taz wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:47 am I’ve read with interest, the posts following my initial posting. I’m slightly surprised that there were no comments about the price of the Ipace, which at £88,000 seems exorbitant to me when you compare it to a Macan of similar specification.
Well, remember that I-Pace performance is roughly on a par with a Macan Turbo (0-60 4.5s) and that the £88K figure was a well-optioned example with plenty of expensive bling. Not difficult to get a Turbo to the same price point even without going mad on the options list. Whether you'd consider the two as equivalents is a more subjective question of course. The I-Pace is perhaps the closest thing to a Macan Turbo EV around at present in terms of size, performance, premium finish (and has some extra features like HUD), but no it's not a Porsche.

The other part of the picture is that JLR are only tooled to make something like 20k examples/year so as long as there's sufficient demand to sell that many cars at or near list then the price can be justified. Remember also that AFAICR the £88K figure doesn't include the the £3.5K government EV grant and that smallish (4-5%) discounts are available from brokers.
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Post by pmg »

johnd wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:13 am
Taz wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:47 am I’ve read with interest, the posts following my initial posting. I’m slightly surprised that there were no comments about the price of the Ipace, which at £88,000 seems exorbitant to me when you compare it to a Macan of similar specification.
Well, remember that I-Pace performance is roughly on a par with a Macan Turbo (0-60 4.5s) and that the £88K figure was a well-optioned example with plenty of expensive bling. Not difficult to get a Turbo to the same price point even without going mad on the options list. Whether you'd consider the two as equivalents is a more subjective question of course. The I-Pace is perhaps the closest thing to a Macan Turbo EV around at present in terms of size, performance, premium finish (and has some extra features like HUD), but no it's not a Porsche.

The other part of the picture is that JLR are only tooled to make something like 20k examples/year so as long as there's sufficient demand to sell that many cars at or near list then the price can be justified. Remember also that AFAICR the £88K figure doesn't include the the £3.5K government EV grant and that smallish (4-5%) discounts are available from brokers.
I just specced an Audi Etron 55 S line to £76.4K. so I suspect by the time Porsche has added its premium a Macan E is going to the £80k''s. "Harry" did say the Ipace spec was a bit over the top. When I specced up an Ipace into 2018 it came to very similar to the Audi at £76.5K
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Post by Spud »

As much as I like the idea of an EV personally I will leave it for several years until the infrastructure is better, just swapped the wife’s Merc and when I was talking to them about the Merc EV their Sales Manager said exactly the same, also noticed several times how some EV drivers are just using the electric charge stations for parking only, time will tell will just have to keep the GTS 😉
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