BBC News Item re Self Driving Cars

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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:16 pm Based on my current experience in Italy of drivers on the Autostrada seeing some sort of space regardless of the speed of the oncoming traffic and just pulling out without signalling!

Is this where autopilot excels or will it have to be further tailored to specific national driving styles?

A friend of mine who travels extensively describes pulling out into heavy traffic as ‘doing a Cairo!’
It's quite sensitive to oncoming traffic and will hit the brakes hard if someone comes straight at you head on. It won't swerve out of the way, but you can do that manually if necessary. In that sort of scenario you probably wouldn't use the system anyway as it would cancel every time you had to override it. It's a system best used on motorways and dual carriageways and you can use the adaptive cruise without the auto steer, which is very useful when following a line of traffic on pretty much any road. I have to say it is very good and way better than anything else I've tried.

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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm The idiot who was in the passenger seat whilst their Tesla S did its own thing is testamount that the Tesla system is not idiot proof, for if it were then this guys actions would not have been allowed to happen by the car.
I agree that the system could be better in terms of active driver detection and I'm sure that will be addressed in future system development - not that it will affect my use of the system in any way because I've never been tempted to drive it from the passenger seat! It's interesting that it wasn't actually his own car, which raises another issue all of its own. How do you stop people using these advanced systems when they don't even understand how they work? Then we're into fingerprint, iris recognition or PIN codes to activate the system. All possible with current tech. There is already a valet mode in the Tesla that limits power and speed, so an extension of that would be possible. So then only authorised drivers could use the Autopilot and any other advanced driving aids.
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Post by Col Lamb »

Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:11 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm The idiot who was in the passenger seat whilst their Tesla S did its own thing is testamount that the Tesla system is not idiot proof, for if it were then this guys actions would not have been allowed to happen by the car.
I agree that the system could be better in terms of active driver detection and I'm sure that will be addressed in future system development - not that it will affect my use of the system in any way because I've never been tempted to drive it from the passenger seat! It's interesting that it wasn't actually his own car, which raises another issue all of its own. How do you stop people using these advanced systems when they don't even understand how they work? Then we're into fingerprint, iris recognition or PIN codes to activate the system. All possible with current tech. There is already a valet mode in the Tesla that limits power and speed, so an extension of that would be possible. So then only authorised drivers could use the Autopilot and any other advanced driving aids.
There is only one way ...... a fully autonomous system.

Its these semi auto systems like Teslas that are dangerous in the wrong hands and other inhibitor tech that is driver selective will function safely

I am pretty sure that when you were in motor racing you did not issue an instruction to the driver .... do not go over the kerbs or it will break the suspension ..... you Engineered it to be as strong and safe as practicable, and safe and practicable is precisely what Tesla is not producing in their Autopilot.
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Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 pm
Peteski wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:11 pm
Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm The idiot who was in the passenger seat whilst their Tesla S did its own thing is testamount that the Tesla system is not idiot proof, for if it were then this guys actions would not have been allowed to happen by the car.
I agree that the system could be better in terms of active driver detection and I'm sure that will be addressed in future system development - not that it will affect my use of the system in any way because I've never been tempted to drive it from the passenger seat! It's interesting that it wasn't actually his own car, which raises another issue all of its own. How do you stop people using these advanced systems when they don't even understand how they work? Then we're into fingerprint, iris recognition or PIN codes to activate the system. All possible with current tech. There is already a valet mode in the Tesla that limits power and speed, so an extension of that would be possible. So then only authorised drivers could use the Autopilot and any other advanced driving aids.
There is only one way ...... a fully autonomous system.

Its these semi auto systems like Teslas that are dangerous in the wrong hands and other inhibitor tech that is driver selective will function safely

I am pretty sure that when you were in motor racing you did not issue an instruction to the driver .... do not go over the kerbs or it will break the suspension ..... you Engineered it to be as strong and safe as practicable, and safe and practicable is precisely what Tesla is not producing in their Autopilot.
Fully autonomous systems are a pipe dream for now, hyped up by the industry and media alike. Semi-autonomous driving has its issues for sure, but where do you draw the line? The current Tesla system is nothing but an advanced adaptive cruise control with lane assist. So if we're going to ban that, to be consistent we should then ban all other lane assist and adaptive cruise control systems on the market.

On the one hand you can get complacent about the abilities of these semi-autonomous systems and on the other hand people tend to drive like dicks when in full manual control. I know from my own experience that I'm a considerably more patient driver when using adaptive cruise control. It's just the nature of the beast and encourages you to go with the traffic flow instead of hassling to get past all the time.
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Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 pm I am pretty sure that when you were in motor racing you did not issue an instruction to the driver .... do not go over the kerbs or it will break the suspension ..... you Engineered it to be as strong and safe as practicable, and safe and practicable is precisely what Tesla is not producing in their Autopilot.
My take on Tesla Autopilot is that is was developed with the intention of becoming a fully autonomous system very quickly. So driver detection was a low priority from the outset and the early versions of Autopilot indeed allowed unlimited hands-off usage - the steering wheel "nags" came later after it became clear that people are stupid and require a level of "policing" in their use of semi-autonomous systems. By default, the only sensor in the car able to provide some form of driver detection was the steering torque sensor, so that's what they used. But people are stupid enough to cheat it by sticking oranges in the steering wheel spokes or hanging weights off it. There is even a weighting device you can buy on Amazon called "Autopilot Buddy"! So yes we can agree that people are incredibly stupid. Some other systems are using eye detection, but people are now finding ways to cheat those too.

Probably the best solution would be to use multiple driver detection sensors e.g. touch sensors, torque sensor, eye detection, cameras etc to ensure that a human driver is actually at the wheel and looking out of the screen. I expect this is what we will see in the next gen systems, together with ever more robust semi-autonomous driving ability. The edge cases where current systems tend to fail (like following a vehicle that swerves at the last second to avoid a stationary object) are likely to be solved relatively quickly as the technology improves. But the nirvana of fully autonomous driving is such a huge step above any of the current systems capabilities. Personally I think that is still a good decade or more away from reality, other than in closely controlled specific environments.
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Post by SAC1 »

These systems are alright for conventional situations. They do not currently take into account the unexpected.

For example I was a front seat passenger in a brand new WW Tiguan being driven carefully by a lady driver on a country road at 35-45 mph. As we came around a bend we saw that a clump of tall cow parsley had toppled into her side of the road. As we approached it the car suddenly slammed on the brakes! Fortunately there was no car behind us, otherwise it would have rammed into the rear of the Tiguan. :shock:
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Post by Dandock »

Peteski wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:13 am
Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 pm I am pretty sure that when you were in motor racing you did not issue an instruction to the driver .... do not go over the kerbs or it will break the suspension ..... you Engineered it to be as strong and safe as practicable, and safe and practicable is precisely what Tesla is not producing in their Autopilot.
My take on Tesla Autopilot is that is was developed with the intention of becoming a fully autonomous system very quickly. So driver detection was a low priority from the outset and the early versions of Autopilot indeed allowed unlimited hands-off usage - the steering wheel "nags" came later after it became clear that people are stupid and require a level of "policing" in their use of semi-autonomous systems.
Clearly still work in progress. Almost like an unlimited drug trial.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-screen- ... omplaints/
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Post by Dandock »

Yet in terms of the the dangers of the perceived or mis-perceived in the hands of the idiot it seems that Tesla are intent on promoting fully autonomous. Let’s hope they’ve majored on idiot-proofing it as well.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopil ... f-driving/
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Post by goron59 »

The Tesla problem has always been that Musk uses combatitive language to promote a feature or product and then lets the frothy fanbase do all the marketing. As such, "autopilot' has long been seen by the many to be just that, an autopilot.

Tesla needs to work much much harder to educate their customers and potential customers about the reality of the various autonomy features. Ultimately, it's just a fancy cruise control with auto braking, auto steer, overtake assist, park assist. Good though it is, it's not a self-driving car.

I can't see Tesla bowing to the pressure to be more responsible about it though. Too much money changing hands between the decision makers. It'll need proof of criminal neglect, I suspect, for any real change to happen.
Deleted User 1874

Post by Deleted User 1874 »

Dandock wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:52 am
Peteski wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:13 am
Col Lamb wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 pm I am pretty sure that when you were in motor racing you did not issue an instruction to the driver .... do not go over the kerbs or it will break the suspension ..... you Engineered it to be as strong and safe as practicable, and safe and practicable is precisely what Tesla is not producing in their Autopilot.
My take on Tesla Autopilot is that is was developed with the intention of becoming a fully autonomous system very quickly. So driver detection was a low priority from the outset and the early versions of Autopilot indeed allowed unlimited hands-off usage - the steering wheel "nags" came later after it became clear that people are stupid and require a level of "policing" in their use of semi-autonomous systems.
Clearly still work in progress. Almost like an unlimited drug trial.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-screen- ... omplaints/
I've recently had the latest Autopilot update and didn't notice any difference with the frequency of "nagging" to hold the wheel. What some of these dumbasses who comment don't realise is that you have to apply a tiny bit of steering torque, not just squeeze the wheel rim! The problem is that many people want this to be a hands off experience when it really isn't.

The system itself works very well in normal mundane driving conditions with a light touch on the wheel and that's fine for me. It can cruise happily for hours along a motorway and if the driving situation suddenly becomes more complicated I switch it off anyway. Equally it can follow a line of traffic on pretty much any road using either adaptive cruise control alone or with Autosteer if the road isn't too complicated. It doesn't even need particularly clear markings, pretty much any half-assed road markings you typically find on our road network work fine. I was surprised at that actually. It's brilliant in a traffic jam and will happily shuffle you along in a queue of traffic indefinitely. Everyone commuting on the M25 or similar moving carpark should have this feature!

Where it is not strong is dealing with complicated junctions with filters, merging roads, road splits etc and this is where most of the accidents arise. Sensible users just switch it off and drive manually through any such road features and only use it for cruising or following a single lane of traffic with no complications. It basically can't make lane choices of its own and has no clue where you want to go anyway. It is not linked to sat nav in any way at present, although it is partially map aware and will automatically brake for upcoming roundabouts etc if you don't act yourself.
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