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Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:34 pm**

GMAN75 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:46 pm Peteski, you can hold short positions for as long as you can finance them. Shorts can trade long or short term.

With all due respect, we'll agree to disagree when it comes to Tesla. They have nothing. Packing a chassis full of batteries isn't rocket science. Neither is the physics associated with the electric motor. Musk is a master marketeer - that's it. Competition is now their main enemy and the competition is coming from far more established, far better run and far more accountable entities - those attractive to investors. Musk knows it. Hence his desire to remain in the shadows of privately run companies...accountability.

You're right, I totally disagree with you on Tesla as we clearly stand on opposite sides of the fence. Have you even driven a Tesla?

Also with all due respect, I suspect you have little or no idea how hard it is to engineer an EV. It's far from your simplistic view above and partially why Tesla has very little competition in the market today. Mainstream automotive companies have been playing with EVs for a very long time with little success or ambition and only now are starting to respond, at a snails pace, to what Tesla have already achieved in less than a decade.

Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:48 pm**

Nosmo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:27 pm
Peteski wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:58 pm
GMAN75 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:22 pm Musk deserves everything he gets. I can't stand his arrogance and utter disregard for what are extremely clear rules concerning manipulation. Make no mistake, he's picked a fight with the wrong people now.

As to short sellers, they are invaluable in ensuring market efficiency and liquidity.

If Tesla is to succeed, Elon Musk needs to go.
You know the world is a f***** up place when people have more respect for bottom feeding market traders than visionaries trying to make an actual difference. Take away the likes of Musk and other entrepreneurs and you have a very dull and uninspiring future to look forward to.
Peteski. Maybe you stop reading the Musk Times. Maybe you should read the story of a short on a company called Herbalife. Then let's talk bottom feeding......

I'll look that one up. I've briefly read the stories of short sellers deliberately attacking Fairfax and Solar City with systematic media misinformation and lies. Tesla looks like a similar scenario to me. Lots of sharks hovering over them talking BS and spending a lot of money talking it too! But the products continue to sell themselves and having lived with a Model X since Feb I can now see why. I wouldn't swap it for any other current car in its class.

Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:13 pm**

GMAN75 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:50 am
Col Lamb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:33 am Can someone tell me just how short sellers add value to the operation of a listed Company?

Also how do they contribute to the productivity of industry?
I think you have confused the issue here. Shorting has nothing to do with the operation of a listed company. A listed company's shares are available to be bought and sold. The market makes the price.

Short sellers aim to sell a stock which they deem as being overvalued in an effort to buy it back at a cheaper price. It is the exact opposite of simply buying a stock at a low price with a view to selling it at a higher price. It is the consensus, regardless of the beat ups you hear, that short selling adds to market efficiency. If "long only" investors believe a stock is overvalued, they simply won't purchase it. The stock, theoretically, can then remain at its current level regardless of its overvaluation. A short seller can borrow this stock, sell it, and therefore fill in the "efficiency void" if you will. The stock, if there are more shorts than longs, will fall to its "real" valuation. It's how the market works.

If you then follow this through and question how this adds to productivity, share price efficiency shows how healthy a company is, it can add colour to whether it should be lent to etc etc...

Tesla is a prime example where market consensus is that the stock is fundamentally overvalued.

Hope that helps.

So its a sort of educated Gambling?

Still do not see how shorting helps the productivity of industry.

Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:08 pm**

So its a sort of educated Gambling?

All share dealing is gambling. People invest money in a business in the hope/belief that said business will grow. And like any form of gambling knowledge is power, which is why there are controls on the information that a company can put out. And why Musk could well be in hot water. By suggesting that the shares are worth $420 and that he, as an officer of the company, has knowledge of a major change in the incorporation of the company, he is, if there is no absolute established foundation for the change, clearly in breach of company law in making a statement that can plainly be construed as an act likely to attract investment.

Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:55 pm**

Mike

Does not look like that to me.

Musk seems to have said something along the lines ..... hoping to take the company into private ownership through buying back shares at $420 each.

How can he be held accountable for dealers failing to make a quick buck out of effectively doing very little but being opportunistic.

Everyone knows what he is like with his statements and allowance should be made for that and if anyone looses out then surely that is due to them not following the path of due dillegence.

Posted: **Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 pm**

No Col, he's potentially guilty of a couple of breaches of SEC rules.

There's the potential of a materially false statement made regarding financing (if he can't back that up, it's a breach).

There's the disclosure rule where a company must distribute information fairly and evenly without any possibility of exclusiveness (a casual tweet doesn't really cut it, even if Tesla did once suggest to investors to follow him of twitter for updates).

If either of these are shaky then he's in trouble.

But as we all too often see, breaking SEC rules is one thing, getting a penalty applied is another.

Posted: **Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:52 am**

His Tweet listed a very good price per share at a 20% premium.

It also stated that.....funding secured.

So no fraud there.

Its 2018 not the dark pre IT age so yes announcements by Tweets can be a perfectly reasonable method of announcing news, POTUS does it all the time.

Posted: **Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:50 am**

But that’s exactly the thing: is the funding secured?

The board of directors certainly don’t believe it is. Musk has ‘suggested’ (tweet opinion or truth?) that the Saudi’s are involved. Reports are that they either aren’t or are not commenting. If they are there remains the small matter of getting any such deal past the US regulator. We all know how DT loves foreign ownership... and the Saudis. Not to mention Musk’s avowed mission to stuff big oil!

Ironically the fact that he made that tweet without the detail to back it up is actually encouraging and increasing the short selling.

Posted: **Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:20 am**

I wonder will he be charged?

Posted: **Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:26 am**

happy days wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:20 am I wonder will he be charged?

Apparently other board members are getting lawyered-up already! Are they anticipating a coming storm?

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